William Livingstone & Isabella Bremner

[livingstoneancestry]

Hi Wanda and Donald

Just really quick. I've been reviewing more of my family tree and the census lists via Ancestry but had a super quick question.... is there any chance that a male descendent of your John Livingston(e) has participated in the family DNA testing or is available to participate? I sponsored my brother for our family line.

(fyi, just as a side note a lot of times I see mistakes. after all Louisa died in 1873 per her headstone but her son James was born in 1874 per his headstone and his death certificate)

The confusing part for me right now for the most is why is John listed as a Bremner at all in the 1851 census (which was it an 1851 census, it listed John as 1.5years but he wasnt born til 1852)

Suzanne

[whisperingwinds]

Hi Suzanne

I really have no idea, if any Livingstone members here, have done a dna test. I really never knew any of them , or even knew where these people are. I have been doing my husbands McCallum family tree, and his grandmother was a daughter of John Bremner Livingstone. Her name was Stella Patterson Livingstone. I had only met her once, and she has since long passed... This is as close as I got to that side, and my encounter was very brief. So, I am sorry to say, I don't think I can help with a dna test here... Because of the resaons here, I just mentioned. Stella Patterson Livingstone, married a John Alfred McCallum, and so on... Stella and her own children all made claim John B. Livingstone was related to Dr. David Livingstone as a second cousin. This is all I ever kept hearing about this Livingstone side, of the family. They all kept saying it, from time to time, and I never really heard much more about them.. So I have been researching this myself, and I did find afew things along the way where I did verify who Johns parents were, then the mystery began, when i satarted reading more about William Livingstone & Isabella Bremner..

As you talk about mistakes on census records via ancestry, etc... those records can be anywhere, as I have seen some myself, pertaining to my own family, regarding dates and spelling of names, where I knew through actual family records, I knew it to be different.. You ask why on this one census where John is listed as John Bremner, in my own apinion, I myself would look at that to be a middle or a last name of that person. Yes I have also been aware some records can be off on years also, but as to actual family records, I obtained from an aunt of my husbands (she was also born McCallum and her mother was Stella Livingston).. I do know Johns middle name - which I had already found myself, so she verified my findings, and also his exact birth / death dates. She actually just found this info hidden away, she forgot she had, amongst her McCallum family tree info. And also on this list, was 13 childrens names that John B. Livingstone, and his wife Jane Hanley Mills, did have together, along with all the birth dates. First time I was made aware of all of Stellas sibblings names, and how many there were. I just got this list, these past few month or so. It was recent. Jane Hanley Mills, I have found things where they relate to her as Jane Hunley MIlls, but actual family accounts it is Hanley, this is just one example of a spelling mistake one can find. I have also read, back in the 1800's alot of these census takers, hardly knew how to read or write, as alot of people didn't know how to back then. Some census recorders I also read, just wrote a persons name down how it sounded, if they didn't know the actual spelling for it.. And if you came across a person that didn't know how to read or write, how would you know how ones family name spelling , was, right or not...

Also where Doanld thinks maybe John is a grandson to William, I do know things like this did happen as I have one case in my own family where this one girl, got pregnant, young, and they tried to hide the truth from outsiders. Now, in this case, this great grandfather of mine, I know his real mothers info, but on records, her parents are both showing to be his parents, though they are his grandparents.


You almost anwsered your own question here, in part, you know they make mistakes, on records, but also wonder why there is a different birth year on John Bremner.. But, this is what i'll need to see, if I can find out.. If possible. I think I already found everything I could find, myself, info wise, for this John b. Livingstone.. Like there's nothing left to find there. Not even a birth certificate, it seems... Well for me, anyway... My access.. it is somewhat limited..

I have no answers for your headstone quirey. I know nothing on these people. Usually family members give all info for a stone and you would think, they should be right.

Well i need to keep on looking, somewhere, see if i can find out anymore..

Wanda

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Wanda and Suzanne,

Actually the census records for this family are fairly consistent in terms of information with one or two exceptions. And while it is true that a birth record has not been found for John Bremner Livingston when the 1901 Census was conducted it did include a birth date which June 13, 1852. If not 1852 then it could be 1851 but I suspect the month and day is correct. You can verify the month and year by checking John B's info in the subsequent 1911 census which gives only the month and year. I will see if I can locate that. If you look at all the census info I have provided from 1851 to 1901, the only the 1851 Census is a bit confusing with use of the name Bremner but as I mentioned the maiden name was utilized with other neighbouring Livingston families at Gratttan Township. As for why John Bremner was not referred to as JOhn Bremner Livingston in the 1851 the important point is he is referred to as John LIvingston in subsequent census in the 1891 census as John Livingston son of Jane Livingston in the 1891 Census and perhaps most importantly as John Bremner Livington as the 1901 Census. Ann Livingston age 15 in the 1851 census married a Mr. Thibideau a few years later and Mr. Thibideau is a witness at the 1863 wedding of George Livingston and Jane Bremner daughter of George Bremner Jr. As has been pointed out George married his first cousin Jane.

The only thing that I am having difficulty with is the notion that the widower Jane Livingston born abt. 1832 residing with William and Isabella apparently from at least the time her son John Bremner Livingston was born was a Bremner as well. THe marriage record of John's unfortnately did not list his mother's maiden and referred to her only as Jane Livingston. That was unfortunate. Usually Ontario marriage records from that period list the maiden name of the bride. It should be noted however that both John himself at the time of his marriage and his relatives at the time of death agreed that his father's name was William Livingston. Unlikely a mistake I should think. The Jane Bremner on the death record I am however just not certain about particurlary given that WIlliams son George married a Jane Bremner. If so it would be an amazing coincidence, not to mention the fact both were apparently born in 1832.

But really the only element of this family research that has me puzzled. The maiden name of Jane. I was trying to figure firstly whether Jane was the daughter of William and Isabella and whether the infant son listed in the 1852 Census and in subsequent census record was hers. The 1891 Census confirms that John was her son and secondly that her status was that of a widow according to her son. So while I agree there are a couple of things we dont know I think a few things at least have been clarified by the family census documentation. In terms of determining precise birth dates from census records it is often a bit of hit and miss and some census record record inaccurate ages for various reasons. Helpful to compare ages given from one census to another and hope you find a consistent pattern that gives you a reasonable good idea of an approximate of birth. A far as the ONtario census records your best bet if you want a full birth date is to go with the 1901 Census, although there is no absolute guarantee it is accurate. It is however a viable source if birth records are not available. As I mentioned as Jane Livingston died in 1893 the records at that time will probably record the parents of Jane which is unfortunate. That would have been one of things I would have checked this week in addition to the census records had the parents been likely recorded.

regards,

Donald

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Wanda and Suzanne,

more family info
1911 Census Grattan Township, Renfrew County
John B. Livingstone b. JUly 1853
Jane b. May 1855
Mary b. May 1889
Stella b. Mary 1891
Robert b. Sept 1893
Edith b. August 1895
Annie b. Sept. 1896
Gordon b. Feb. 1898
Rae b. Nov. 1904
Arnot b. July 1909

Some the dates such as John's are probably incorrect for the year but verifies the month as being July.

regards,

Donald

[whisperingwinds]

Hi Donald....

Once again, thank you very much for your understanding and your time, on this one here. So, I can't help but say, I still do feel alittle confused with Johns parents. We are definately missing something here, but just can't seem to find it. I guess we all looked every where we could. Too bad I never did find his birth certificate, as he was born in Ontario.. All I do have if what was handed down by family members, which is where I got the birth date from, along with the list of his children and all of their birthdates, also... Huh, I thought this was going to be easy when I first started this, but I guess not. But, I was really thinking along the lines if George Livingstones middle name, if it was William, and he was called by that, this here would make more sense to me, and Jane Bremner would have been his mother, if this was the case.. If you guys can't find anything, I guess, I have to call it quits on this one, but I do know, with his middle name being Bremner, it is common sense, to know, he does fit in, this spot, here somewhere, and his middle name is what brought me to find William Livingstone & Isabella Bremner... Even I thought if Isabella Bremners first or middle name was also Jane, I thought, this could work too, if we knew these things it would help. Doing my own ancestry for my own family, I have found this to be very common, there, alot of people did go by their middle name..

But I also always remember too, when Stella Livingstone and her family all made claims, how Stella's father, John B. Livingstone was a first or second cousin, to Dr. David, Livingstone, I think Stella was just confirming what her own father did tell her, and I do feel, since it was her father John, letting everyone know this, it has to be true, why would he lie about it? If John was the son of William Livingstone, and those 2 documents confirm his father was William, this would really make it so to be true... The only problem I do find here, also, myself, is the mothers name, which is where it does get confusing and all screwed up.. Johns death certificate does say Jane Bremner... Who would know better, than Johns own children, other than himself, to know these details... In my heart, I feel the marriage and death certificate, info, to be true, but, it is what I am finding elsewhere is what got me confused, as to the info on William & Isabella Livingstone. Maybe William Livingstone, fathered a son by Jane Bremner, Isabellas sister..... Maybe this is why Jane was living with William till he died, then as you stated, also, then , after Williams death, she went to live with her son John. This here, doesn't make sense to me either. In my own family genealogy, I have found, people had numerous children, back in those days and in some cases, not all were recorded, or were but left off of some records.. And alot of kids died young. I have also found men were impregnating their wives, in some cases, even into their fifties, or remarried, if their wife died, and had more kids with the second wife, and even alittle older yet.. Did William re-marry, did he cheat with his sister in law? Why did William Livingstones, sister in law, Jane Bremner, live with William till his death ? I'd look at that too. But to find it, well...... That is what I think, If Isabella didn't have a first or middle name of Jane, herself, I'd be looking into William Livingstone having a son, with Isabellas sister, Jane Bremner, and for some reson, Jane did live with William till he died.... And you yourself do admit, John was known as Bremner and Livingstone, both.... Well this is my theory I find makes sense to me, but can it be proven ?? I don't know..

Tahnk you,
Wanda

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Wanda,
Just to recap.
I am drawing my conclusions on John Bremner Livingstone from the information gathered during the 1891 Canadian Census , from the earlier census records and from the John's marriage record. I believe that JOhn Bremner Livingston was the grandson of William Livingston and Isabella Bremner and that his father was William Livingston Jr. and his mother Jane born abt. 1832. Jane a widower was left with a young son JOHn Bremner Livingston, lived with inlaws William Livingston and Isabella Bremner. And when old William died she then lived her son John Bremner Livingston and his wife Jane. I dont think that your ancestor John B. Livingston was born out wedlock. Here then are my conclusions regarding your ancestors and why I drew these conclusions.

1. JOhn Bremner Livingston was the son of William Livingston Jr. and Jane ? born abt. around 1851/ 1852. John Bremner Livingston is the grandson of William Livingston and Isabella Bremner and lived on WIlliam and Isabella's farm with his mother Jane and with WIlliam and Isabella's children George Livingston and Ann (Mrs Thibideau).

2. Jane Livingston born abt. 1832 residing with William and Isabella was their daughter in law and not their daughter. as she is referred to as a widow living with her son John in the 1891 Canadian Census. Secondly the 1891 census states that Janes mother and father were both born in Canada and therefore could not William and Isabella who were Scottish natives.

3. William Livingston Jr., Jane Livingston's husband died just before the 1852 Census and for next 36 years resided with her father in law
WIlliam Livingston born abt. 1799 in Scotland.

4. THere is no evidence that John Bremner Livingston was born out wedlock. His mother Jane Livingston and a widow not an unmarried spinster. THe early family trees which included Jane Livingston as a daughter of William and Isabella had next to no info on her and appear to just have assumed she was a spinster daughter which the 1891 Census and the fact that she John B. Livingston has been proven through the 1891 Census to be her son further reinforces the notion she was briefly married.

5. William Livingston and Isabella Bremner family tree was originally constructed with the available information but as frequently happens in family research not all the family info is located or correct. If a son of William and Isabella Livingston died in his early twenties around the 1850's chances are quite good in Ontario you wont find a death record, surviving cemetery stone or much of a paper trail as he didnt own land and there were likely no surviving transactions mentioning the young man unlike their son George Livingston who appears in a surviving marriage record in the 1860's and census records. A William Jr. could have died as a young man and with his marriage record missing which is quite common prior to the 1860s' in Ontario as they were kept by various circuit ministers and often were lost, discarded or destroyed in a fire in those early times. There may be a marriage record between a William Livington and Jane around 1850 in Lanark County or Renfrew County out there somewhere but it may be that it simply did survive. What is most convincing to me is John's marriage record in which he himself stated his father was a WIlliam Livingston and his mother Jane Livingston. Obviously he did not mean old William Livingston who was married to Isabella Bremner. He himself a few decades later in the 1891 Census makes it clear his mother residing with him a widower Jane Livingston so it is clear as it states that mother was a Jane who married a Livingston and his name that John recorded on his marriage reccord was William Livingston. So I think what John B. is saying is that his father who died around time of his birth was a son of WIlliam Livingston as son of WIlliam Livingston and Isabella Bremner.

6. William was presbyterian so it is not likely he had could have two wives at the same time. If old Isabella had died and another wife named Jane and a child had appeared that would make sense that Jane was his second wife. But we know from the Ontario records that his wife Isabel lived with her husband William into his old age and from the 1850's young Jane lived with her son John Bremner Livingston with WIlliam and Isabella Old Isabella died in the 1870's and your ancestor old William in 1888. There is no evidence that John B. Livingston was the son of Wiliam Livingston Sr. or his wife Isabella and in the 1891 census several years after Isabella Bremner died your ancestor himself John B. Livingston states the his mother is the Jane Livingston born 1832 who is very much alive and well and living with him. It it very clear in Ontario records I have provided you with that old Isabella Bremner and Jane Livingston are two different people.

The only thing I am not certain is about Jane being named Bremner. There werent alot of Bremners in Grattan Township so we can narrow down and track those Bremners who had a daughter name Jane who was born in the 1830's. So far the only Jane Bremner I am aware of was George Bremner Juniors daugher who married William and Isabella Livingston's son George Livingson in 1863. I am not 100 percent certain but think that the entry in John death records stating his mothers last name was Bremner is an error by his next of kin in the 1930's.

These then are my conclusions based on the evidence we have. I hope this the existing Ontario records pertaining to your ancestor that I have provided you with eventually help you to sort this all out.

regards,

Donald

[whisperingwinds]

Donald

Thank you once again, for all you have done. But I was looking at this 1861 census, and it does look like an 8 year old John Livingstone was living in William & Isabellas household.. it is listed as follows, i'm sure you know, but for me to recap..

Census - 1861 --- #34 - William Livingstone - farmer - born Scotland
#35 - Isabella Bremner -- born Scotland
#36 - George Livingstone
#37 - Jane Livngstone
#38 - John Livingstone - age 8 - born u of c (upper canada - i think this means)
#39 - Anne - (i can't quite make out her last name- ends in gan)
#40 - Neil Livingstone - farmer
#41 - Anne Campbell

To me, this here, might look as though John was a son of george, and this Jane Livingstone here.. maybe.. As Neil Livingstones wife, I think if i remember right, is listed under him, well, maybe this is the case here. Could this George be Our William Jr? Is Georges middle name William ? I wonder, because, as you did also state, there was no proof a William junior even ever existed, so how do you know one was born? you feel there must have been one because this William and his wife were too old. And no way did Isabella also have a name of Jane to go with Isabella. But In conclusion, this is where John does seem to belong.. It's just too bad, it wasn't easier.....

I have been looking all day trying to find other things on here, well John anyway, I just keep coming up with the same stuff I have already found. It doesn't look like Ontario has any birth records released yet for that time period..

Well, I want to thank you for everything you did, I really do appreciate your time and trouble..


























thank you,

Wanda

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Wanda,

John son of teenage George Livingston son of William and Isabella in 1852? How can that be? George Livingston is still single in 1861. George Livingston does not marry until 1863 and your ancestor John B., Livingston was born abt. 1852.Also your ancestor John Bremner Livingston in his marriage and in his death record his kin never stated that George Livingston was his father. If you follow the Census information and records provided that really makes no sense. According to Renfrew County Methodist marriage records George Livingston son of William and Isabella Livingstone married Jane Bremner daughter of George Bremner Jr in the year 1863 as I previously mentioned. The young John Livingston age 8 is the same John Livingston that shows up with his mother Jane Livingston widower in every census before her death including the 1851, 1861, 1871, 1881 and 1891 which I provided you. His mother Jane Livingston died in 1893. She is last recorded residing at the farm of householder John Livingston in the 1891 Canadian Census, Grattan Township, Renfrew County, Ontario. Her age is 59 years and John recorded in his census as head householder that Jane Livingston residing with him was his mother and a widower. It is your ancestors 1891 Census form with information supplied by your ancestor John B. Livingston or his wife so it should be accurate as to who is related to who. William's son George last appears in the 1861 Census and left the household of his parents William Livingston and Isabella Bremner after his marriage to George Bremner's daughter Jane Bremner. Your ancestor lived with his mother Jane born abt. 1832 and for many years they lived with William and Isabella Livingstone his grandparents and once old William b.1799 died in 1888 we find in the next Census of 1891 she is residing with her son JOhn Livingston and his wife Jane and their children. Jane b. 1832 then dies and couple of years later in 1893. Its just that simple.



Glad to be of help. Genealogy is an important part of the Clan Maclea Livingstone Society.

regards,

Donald

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Suzanne,

I understand the confusion regarding some aspects of the 1852 Census. It is definite not as clear as the subsequent census record but all of the people in that census can fortunately be explained and identfied within the family group. William Livingston is the householder with his wife Isabella recorded as Isabella Bremner. Living with them is their son George, their daughter Ann (later Mrs Thibideau), recently widowed daughter in law Jane Livingston and her infant son John Bremner (Livingston). After Ann marries and George married they are gone but the widowed Jane remains her son John B. Livingston at the household of WIlliam and Isabella Livingston. Ann married I think in 1858, George in 1863. After old William Livingston died in 1888, we see that Jane born abt. 1832 is still residing with her son John Livingston. IN the 1891 Census John Livingston himself leaves no doubt about who this Jane Livingston was recording her for posterity as his widowed mother. Thus at least some of the questions regarding this family are answered I think JOhn B. Livingston himself. The 1852 info on John Bremner(Livingston) I concede is confusing stating he is 1 and 1/2 years in 1852. Perhaps they meant 1 and 1/2 months. In any event if it is likely an error of some sort, but not one which affects our pursuit of indentifying John. B. Livingston as we have subsequent census records to work with. The 1852 Census info is a bit confusing but hopefully we can utilize the other census info and John's marriage record to clear things up. As in the 1891 Census John Bremner Livingston complete the information on his marriage record so it seems unlikely that John made a mistake when he stated his parents were William and Jane Livingston. I am 100 percent certain he is referring to his unknown father another William Livingston in all probability an apparently forgotten son of William Livingston and Isabella Bremner. In my oppinion his father was a brother of George Livingston who died very young around the time of his son JOhn B's birth or thereabouts. For Obvious reasons Old William Livingston b. 1799 was not JOhn B. Livingstons son. SO we are looking at a forgotten son of William and Isabella in my oppinion which John Bremner Livingston himself stated in his own marriage record was William Livingston. I think it very unlikely he was a son of old William b.1799 and his wife Isabella for a couple of reason which I have stated included that fact that JOhn in his 1891 Census entries informs us that Jane born abt.1832 residing on his farm in 1891 is infact his mother and that of course is the same Jane born abt. 1832 listed in previous census records in Grattan Township with young John B. Livington at the home of William and Isabella Livingston. Most of this actually begins to make sense but we had to sort it out, but I think this close to the truth of the matter.



regards,

Donald

[whisperingwinds]

Hi Donald

I know you said you were done, here, but I just wanted to let you know something I found..

It is a passenger & immigration lists index - 1500's - 1900's - have you seen this one?

name - William Livingstone
year - 1821
place - Ontario, Canada
family - wife - Isabella Bremner
child - John
child - Hugh
child - Neil
child - Jane
child - george
child - Margaret
child - Ann
source - 1640.7

primary immigrant - William Livingstone

Most are dates when last mentioned as living in Scotland or date of birth and date of death with place of first mention of residence in New World; some are dates of emigration with intended destination. Indexers assumed spouse and children mentioned prior to.

source - DOBSON, DAVID, Directory of Scottish settlers in North America, 1625 - 1825. Vol. viii,Baltimore: GenealogicalPublishing Co.., 1993.109p.
page #55
source citation: place - Ontario Canada - Year - 1821 -
page #55

it goes on to say more of the source information and description.

I just thought this was interesting, as it does say here, that William & Isabella did have a child named John.... All the kids are not listed here and no dates are shown for birth, but this is the first thing I did see to confirm, to me, they did indeed have a son John. Too bad no dates or birth places were given for each individual....

I just thought I would tell you in case you never seen this one..

Maybe they did have a son John, after all, and maybe, just maybe, Isabella could be --- Jane Isabella Bremner or Isabella Jane Bremner.... known as either Jane and / or Isabella..

On my own tree searching, I have found people back in those days seem to have kids pretty well in their early years, along with their later years, have alot of kids and seem to die not long after.. I seen myself, in other cases, women were having kids in there forties, back then, if they lived long wnough.

Well, I just thought I would bring this to your attention, as it is the only record, so far, I have seen that does confirm William and Isabella did have a son John, and he wasn't listed, till the one 1861 census..

Wanda