John Livingston and Helen Cockburn Marriage

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John Livingston and Helen Cockburn Marriage

Postby D.W.Livingston » Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:36 pm

Hello Everyone,

So I know Donald had looked into my past family a few years ago and I have incorporated what he found into my timeline but I am stuck at 1805/1806 with my GGG-Grandfather John Livingston... I am unsure of the date of his birth or who his parents are.

What I do know is that the Parish of Cranston has him living there in the 1841 Census, he was 36 at the time and married to Helen Livingston, who was 26, with their daughter Margaret who was 5, Son James who was 3, and Daughter Helen who was some months old.
- I know that Helen is Helen Cockburn, born around 1816 (26 years at 1841)
-- I believe her parents are ALEXANDER COCKBURN and MARGARET BROWN but I am not positive, I thought I had that on a marriage record but now I can't find it...

I have a marriage record that states:
30/06/1833 LIVINGSTON, JOHN (OPR Marriages 695/00 0040 0193 NEWBATTLE)
Comfeared John Livingston of the Parish of Cranston and Helen Cockburn of this (NEWBATTLE). Confessed they had been irregularly married at Coldstream and being interrogated if he could produce lines to that effect answered that he had lodged them in the hands of her brother who had torn them but if required he would produce other lines. They therefore upon promising to pay the dues we rebuked for their irregularity and had their mariage affirmed.
- this doesn't help with the parents name of John Livingston
-- I was thinking maybe their children name might help but I now think the first daughter Margaret might be mother of Helen, couldn't find anything with James, Helen is probably for Helen Cockburn
--- After Helen was Elizabeth in 1843, John in 1846 (maybe after the father John), and then Sarah Livingston in 1849
---- John Livingston (1846) married Marion Pryde and that is where my line continues

So does anyone know a way to find who John Livingston (abt 1806) parents would be?

Doing a ScotlandsPeople search from 1803 - 1808 has 21 parents (but none from Cranston, Newbattle, or Coldstream)

1 18/01/1803 LIVINGSTON JOHN DUNCAN LIVINGSTON/NELLY MCDOUGAL M TOROSAY AND KINLOCHSPELVIE /ARGYLL 550/00 0010 0019
2 06/02/1803 LIVINGSTON JOHN JOHN LIVINGSTON/ISABEL SHANKS FR1038 (FR1038) M KIRKCALDY /FIFE 442/00 0040 0107
3 19/05/1803 LIVINGSTON JOHN JOHN LIVINGSTON/ M KILDRUMMY /ABERDEEN 208/00 0010 0094
4 26/12/1803 LIVINGSTON JOHN J LIVINGSTONNO NAME2 M DUMFRIES /DUMFRIES 821/00 0030 0222
5 29/01/1804 LIVINGSTON JOHN DONALD LIVINGSTON/ANNE MCINNIS FR10 (FR10) M MORVERN /ARGYLL 528/00 0010 0005
6 24/03/1804 LIVINGSTON JOHN DUGALD LIVINGSTON/MARY MCCULLOCH FR74 (FR74) M KILMORE AND KILBRIDE /ARGYLL 523/00 0010 0063
7 25/03/1804 LIVINGSTON JOHN JOHN LIVINGSTON/CHRISTIE M LISMORE APPIN AND DUROR /ARGYLL 525/00 0010 0302
8 05/06/1804 LIVINGSTON JOHN JOHN LIVINGSTON/AGNES STEWART FR1964 (FR1964) M GLASGOW GLASGOW CITY CITY/LANARK 644/01 0200 0212
1 07/02/1805 LIVINGSTON JOHN ANGUS LIVINGSTON/MARGARET HALL M KILFINICHEN AND KILVICKEON /ARGYLL 542/00 0010 0009
2 02/06/1805 LIVINGSTON JOHN DUNCAN LIVINGSTON/AGNES MCKIETH FR1107 CHILD 2 (FR1107) M BARONY GLASGOW CITY CITY/LANARK 622/00 0040 0393
3 06/06/1805 LIVINGSTON JOHN THOMAS LIVINGSTON/JANE DALGATY FR218 (FR218) M EDINBURGH EDINBURGH CITY CITY/MIDLOTHIAN 685/01 0400 0270
4 23/08/1805 LIVINGSTON JOHN JOHN LIVINGSTON/AGNES COOPER FR3581 (FR3581) M ST CUTHBERT'S EDINBURGH CITY CITY/MIDLOTHIAN 685/02 0130 0151
5 17/11/1805 LIVINGSTON JOHN ROBERT LIVINGSTON/MARGARET HAMILTON FR1343 (FR1343) M KILSYTH /STIRLING 483/00 0060 0109
6 11/12/1805 LIVINGSTON JOHN ADAM LIVINGSTON/MARY MCCORQUODALE FR171 (FR171) M LISMORE APPIN AND DUROR /ARGYLL 525/00 0010 0175
7 02/02/1806 LIVINGSTON JOHN DONALD LIVINGSTON/MARGARET MCLEA FR360 (FR360) M ROTHESAY /BUTE 558/00 0020 0292
8 29/06/1806 LIVINGSTON JOHN JOHN LIVINGSTON/MARY CARMICHEAL FR135-191 (FR135) M CRAIGNISH /ARGYLL 508/00 0010 0187
9 13/07/1806 LIVINGSTON JOHN DUNCAN LIVINGSTON/FLORA MCDOUGALL FR1129 CHILD 3 (FR1129) M BARONY GLASGOW CITY CITY/LANARK 622/00 0040 0437
10 24/07/1806 LIVINGSTON JOHN JOHN LIVINGSTON/MARY CAMERON FR224 (FR224) M KIPPEN /STIRLING 484/00 0010 0284
11 28/03/1807 LIVINGSTON JOHN JOHN LIVINGSTON/MARY MCINTYRE FR81 (FR81) M KILMORE AND KILBRIDE /ARGYLL 523/00 0010 0070
12 15/08/1808 LIVINGSTON JOHN SAMUEL LIVINGSTON/MARY HENDERSON FR2533 (FR2533) M LEITH SOUTH EDINBURGH CITY CITY/MIDLOTHIAN 692/02 0080 0115
13 25/08/1808 LIVINGSTON JOHN JAMES LIVINGSTON/CHRISTIAN WRIGHT M CRIEFF /PERTH 342/00 0010 0138

Just sending this out for anyone curious or adventurous who wants to tackle a wall I hit a while back and haven't been able to get past. :)
David Wyse Livingston
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Re: John Livingston and Helen Cockburn Marriage

Postby Margaret Stewart » Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:27 am

Hi David

You could look for John's death certificate after 1855 and from that you would get his parents' names (if the person registering the death Knew them!). I'll probably be going to the Mitchell next week so if you can't find them - or there are too many - I can have a look then.

Kind regards

Margaret
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Re: John Livingston and Helen Cockburn Marriage

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:44 pm

Hi David,

I think we made some progress with your family line but that was a while ago I will have to tryan refresh my memory if I can on what we did find out at that time. If I find out anything of help to you I will be in touch.

regards,

Donald
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Re: John Livingston and Helen Cockburn Marriage

Postby D.W.Livingston » Tue Nov 24, 2015 6:56 pm

Hi Donald and Margaret,

I found the old email thread Donald did and I am adding it here. It seems that John Livingston might be a Real Wall and anything before that will need to be speculatiuon only. But here is all the great information Donald found 5 years ago. :)

-- Original Message --
Sun 09/26/2010

Hi David,

Ok I am pretty certain that you wont find John Livingston's death record however I do have some idea when he possibly died. I noticed that by the time of the 1871 Census his wife Helen also referred to as Ellen from time to time is Helen Levingstone age 48 working as an outdoor laborer in Crichton Parish, Midlothian said to be born oddly enough in Srantul, Haddingtonshire. She is his without her husband and living with her two eldest daughters Helen and Margaret. In the 1881 Census Helen Livingstone age 58 born Tranent, Haddingtonshire continues to reside now in Crichton Parish, Midlothian employed as House Manager lliving with daughter Margaret and a grandaughter named Margaret. In 1891 Helen Livingston age 68 born Tranent, Haddingtonshire, is back in Cranston, Midlothian at Murry's Toll working as a farm worker with daughter Margaret and the grandaughter also named Margaret. By the 1901 Census she is referred to as Ellen Livingston and at age 79 is still in Cranston Parish and living with her son John Livingston Jr. a coal miner and his wife Marion and family.

So my best guess is that John Livingston Senior died sometime between 1861 and 1871 and then his wife was compelled to find work to support herself.

I have identified at least three Livingston couples that were living in Tranent parish, Mid Lothian at the time of your ancestor's birth but there is no evidence that any of them are John's parents though they were having children at the time that your ancestor was born abt. 1806. These couples were James Livingston and Sarah Woods, Alexander Livingston and Janet Marks and John Livingstone and Christian Howie. Alexander and Janet I think are eliminated because they were married in Tranent March 3rd, 1809. James and Sarah had three sons James b.1794 John b. 1798 and David b. 1803 so that probably eliminate them as parents. That leaves a John Livingstone and Christian Howie who I only found one birth record for Christian Livingstone born Nov. 23, 1806 which of course conflicts with possibility of John being born in 1806 to them unless he was born actually in 1805 or 1807 which might be possible. If there are any other couples who had children at that time I am not aware of them.

By the 1841 and 1851 Census there arent many Livingstons at Tranent Parish to try and figure something out. There was a David Livingston b.1807 coal miner in 1851 residing at the Coal Nook with his mother Helen Livingston . I wonder if this could be relatives of your John Livingston Sr. born abt. 1806? Your family seem to have been quarrymen and coal miners going back to their time in Tranent Haddingtonshire. The fact that some of census records for his wife are also mentioning Tranent Parish is even more convincing me that your John was indeed from some Tranent Parish East Lothian family that was connected to a mining operation there in the early 1800's. There are some pieces in the puzzle that strongly suggest a history of coal mining for your Livingston ancestors.

regards,

Donald
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Re: John Livingston and Helen Cockburn Marriage

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:18 am

Hi David,

I dont think I did the find the death record then? I found it today. John Livingston and his wife Helen Cockburn lived for many years in the Parish of Cranston, Chesterhill town in Midlothian County. HIs wife Helen Cockburn was apparently born in Cranston Parish according census info. John Livingston according to his census info was born in Tranent Parish, East Lothian. I did not find a birth record there for him but he appears to have been born abt. 1806 or sometime around there in Tranent Parish. He appears with his wife and family in t he census records that I noticed from 1851 to 1871 in Cranston Parish, Midlothian. His death record does in fact exist and states that his wife was Helen Cockburn and that he died August 21,1875 at the town of Chesterhill, Parish of Cranston, Midlothian age 74 which would make his birth date about 1801 or 1802 which does not seem to jive with the info saw on his approximate age with the census data like you stated about 1806. So bit of a mystery there. HIs parents listed with this information which was a plus and are named as James Livingston and Sarah Wood. So we can take this family back at least one generation to Tranent Parish, Midlothian.I did a quick search and could not find his birth information in Tranent Parish, MIdlothian but found information that a brother David Howie Livingston was born May 15, 1803 to his parents James LIvingston and Sarah Wood. That was the only birth of their's I found listed but at least it helped verify their existence and the name "Howie" may perhaps be a family name connected to James Livingston I may explore later. As I may have mentioned back in 2010 I noticed in the 19th century census info some of the Livingstons in the 1800's were employed in coal mining in Tranent Parish. John's death record mentioned that at one time he had been a baker, but the earliest census I found of 1851 indicates that at one time he had been employed as a "quarryman", also then a Livingston working with coal.

Not sure how much farther I got with this family it has been a while. That earlier posting you found will help to refresh my memory on how far I got with the search. Good to hear that Margaret has found some possible leads in the search for living relatives of yours in Scotland. That will make it nice for you to connect with cousins you never knew you had there. More to follow.


regards,

Donald
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Re: John Livingston and Helen Cockburn Marriage

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:27 am

Hi David,

Thanks for finding that earlier posting from 2010. THere are couple of things there that may be clues.

1. Ok we now know that John Livingston died in 1875 in the town of Chesterfield, Cranston Parish, Midlothian so oops there was a death record for John.

2. HIs parents were James LIvingston and Sarah Wood of Tranent Parish, East Lothian

4. Could not find a birth record for John but took another look and found some children of James Livingstone and Sarah Wood of Tranent Parish East Midlothian, Scotland
Janet Livingstone born 12/06/1791
James Livingstone born 16/03/1794
James Livingstone born 03/07/1796 (not sure why there are two James for those dates
David Howe Livingstone born 15/05/1803

That long gap between James Livingstone Jr. and David Howe Livingston suggests to me that there must have a few children more born between 1796 and 1803 likely not recorded or the information is now lost. I think we can presume that your ancestor John was born abt. 1800 looking at his death record info. The census information seems suggest though a birthdate of abt. 1805 or 1806 so there is a bit of a mystery there for you. So my conclusion is that your ancestor John Livingston was either born a little before David or a little after David depending I guess on whether the death record info or his census info is the more correct information.

Sorry I could not locate a birth record for John's father James Livingston but presumingly he was born in the 1760's or 1770's in Midlothian or a neighbouring County.

regards,

Donald
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Re: John Livingston and Helen Cockburn Marriage

Postby Kyle MacLea » Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:20 pm

Great work, Margaret and David and Donald!

Kyle=
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Re: John Livingston and Helen Cockburn Marriage

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Wed Nov 25, 2015 7:29 pm

Hi Kyle,

Did you see that one birth record from Rothesay/ Bute that David stumbled across in his search with a John Livingston born 1806 to parents Donald Livingston and Margaret Mclea? Have not seen that too often. Maybe your related to Margaret McLea.

regards,

Donald
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Re: John Livingston and Helen Cockburn Marriage

Postby jmlivingstone » Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:58 pm

David,

You can safely delete from your list,

John Livingstone b.1805, Kilpatrick/Shiaba, Isle of Mull, parents Angus Livingstone & Margaret Hall, this John married Agnes Edmiston in Livingstone, West Lothian, 27 Oct. 1827, he died at Tirvagan, Isle of Islay in 1858.

John was my g/g/ grandfather,

John.
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Re: John Livingston and Helen Cockburn Marriage

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:31 pm

HI David,

Looking back to that postings from 2010 I actually led you astray a bit. I must of been having a bad day. Anyways I was incorrect when I stated that John Livingston was not in the 1871 Census. In fact he was but under John Levingstone. And he did not die between the year 1861 and 1871 as I surmised then but between the year 1871-1881. August 21, 1875 at Chesterfield, Cranston Parish, Midlothian to be precise.

This was John's last census info from 1871 for your family records
CHesterfield, Cranston Parish, Midlothian
John Levingstone formally a baker b. Tranent, East Lothian age 55 (this is his wrong age)
Helen Levingstone b. Cranston, Edinburgh age 55
James Levingstone b. Newbattle, Edinburgh age 32
Sarah Levingstone b. Cranston, Midlothian age 21


regards,

Donald
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