John Livingston and Helen Cockburn Marriage

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Re: John Livingston and Helen Cockburn Marriage

Postby D.W.Livingston » Sat Apr 30, 2016 1:43 am

His parents are Alexander Livingstone (1730 - 1795) and Elisabeth Hog (1728 - )
- they married 25 Dec 1751


So I see another person has an Alexander Livingstone (born 1726 - Edinburgh) married to Elizabeth Hogg (born abt 1730 - Glasgow) on 25 Dec 1751
Elizabeth Hogg's parents are listed as Peter Hogg (1682 - 1745) and Elizabeth Simson (1690 - 1745)

This is what I could use some help with:
Alexander Livingstone, born 1726, has parents listed as:
Father: Sir Robert Bedlormie Livingstone (born abt 1706 - West Lothian, Scotland) and Isabella Baillie (born 1705 - )
Grandfather: Sir Alexander Livingstone (Laird Bedlormie West Quarter) (born abt 1695 - ) and Henrietta Scott (born abt 1695 - )
Great Grandfather: James, 5th Earl of Linlithgow, 4th Earl of Callender Livingston (born abt 1680 - ) and Lady Margaret Erroll-Hay (born abt 1688 - )

I looked up Sir Alexander Livingstone (Laird Bedlormie) and found a website: https://www.geni.com/people/Sir-Alexander-Laird-Bedlormie-West-Quater-Livingstone/6000000030599383674
- following the links up through:
-- Father of Sir Robert Of Bedlormie or West Quarter Livingstone (1706)
--- Father of Sir Alexander Livingstone (circa 1730)
---- Father of James Livingstone (August 21, 1763) - wife Sarah Livingstone (Wood) (September 30, 1759)
----- Father of Alexander Livingstone (March 22, 1789) - wife Janet Mark (who would be a brother of the John Livingstone

Is there any way that someone with more experience can verify or debunk this line. Not that I wouldn't LOVE to say I am related to the 4th Earl of Callender but I just think it odd that I went from a brick wall to a well recorded family dating back to 12th or 13th century.... I am a complete pessimist.

Thank you everyone for your help. This is exciting but frustrating at the same time. :) haha
David Wyse Livingston
Tucson, Arizona, United States
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Re: John Livingston and Helen Cockburn Marriage

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Mon May 02, 2016 1:03 pm

Hi David,


Just refreshing my memory on this Livingstone family line.

I am only able to go as far back as Alexander Livingston of Eden and Elizabeth Hog's marriage in Tranent, East Lothian December 21, 1751. I can not find Alexander Livingston's birth or baptismal record with any certainty. Presume he was born abt. 1730 or earlier but not certain which Alexander he was in the Scottish records or if his birth or baptismal record exists for certain. Not certain that Alexander Livingston that lived in Tranent Parish, East Lothian in the 1750's was knighted or connected to an aristocratic line that you mentioned. You would have to research it in one of those old books that would list scots in the 1700's who were knighted. That would be the first thing you would want to check. Some of them give a detailed genealogy of those who were knighted, who they were married to and where they lived etc. The one thing you do know is that James Livington's father lived at Alexander that married Elizabeth Hog lived at Eden, in Tranent Parish, East Lothian at the time of his marriage in 1751. A birth or baptismal record is not sure thing. I think the next step is confirm whether or not this Alexander Livingston husband of Elizabeth Hog was actually a knight and that may not prove to be too difficult.

Tranent Parish, East Lothian
Alexander Livingstone in Tranent and his wife Elizabeth Hog had a son James born August 21st 1763, Baptized said day August 21st by Mr. Cunningham Minister of Tranent, Witnesses: Andrew Livington and James Hog

James parents: Alexander Livingston and Elizabeth Hog married December 25, 1751 , Tranent Parish, East Lothian Witnesses: John Boswel, Janet King. There is a name of a town or village where they lived at the time of their marriage but I can't quite read it. I thought it was Eden but I am sure that is correct.
Children:
1.Charles Livingston born July 5, 1757 baptized July 10, 1757 Tranent Parish, East Lothian
2. Elizabeth Livingston born July 28, 1760 baptized July 28, 1760 Witnesses Andrew Livingston and James Hog
3. Jean Livingston born Sept. 22, 1761 baptized Sept. 27, 1761
4. James Livingston born August 21, 1763 baptized August 21, 1763 Witness: Andrew Livingston
(This was your ancestor James Livingston who later married Sarah Wood I believe)

James Livingston and Sarah Wood (Could not locate marriage record)
Tranent Parish, East Lothian
1. Alexander Livingston 29/03/1789
2. Janet Livingstone 12/06/1791
3. James Livingstone 16/03/1794
4. James Livingstone 03/07/1796
5. John Livingstone born 24/09/1798 baptized 04/10/1798
5. David Howie Livingstone 15/05/1803
6. John Livingston your ancestor born abt 1801 according to 1875 death record. Parents listed in death record as James Livingston and Sarah Wood. The 1871 Census however suggests that he was born abt. 1806 or 1805. The parish record information states that John Livingstone born however in 1798. His death record clearly indicates that his parents were James Livingston and Sarah Wood so we have to assume that no one in the family at the time of the census or his death was aware of his actual birth date and age or those who copied down the info got it wrong.

Your ancestor John Livingston not recorded in these parish records but his census records state he was born in Tranent Parish about 1806. His death record suggests about 1801. Death information in 1875 confirms that John's parents were James Livingston and Sarah Wood whom we know resided in Tranent Parish at the time of John's birth.
Death Record
John Livingston Baker and general labourer married to Helen Cockburn died age 74 years August 21, 1875 Chesterhill, Cranston Parish, Midlothian, Scotland Parents: James Livingston and Sarah Wood Informant: Mary Livingston daughter in law
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Re: John Livingston and Helen Cockburn Marriage

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Mon May 02, 2016 9:56 pm

Hi David,

Regarding the parents of Alexander Livingston who married Elizabeth Hog or Hogg in 1751 Tranent Parish East Lothian I am not sure how it is known when this Alexander Livingston was born or where or who his parents were. I suspect there is a certain speculation there regarding his birthplace in Edinburgh. Anyways I am looking into it. It is not clear to me where Alexander resided before Tranent Parish, East Lothian circa 1751 and not sure of any information out there that he was knighted and the son of a knight. It would be interesting where the source of that ancestral line linking James Livington husband of Sarah Wood to aristocratic ancestral line. Worth looking into to be sure as to how that information came to be and I shall do that.

regards,

Donald
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Re: John Livingston and Helen Cockburn Marriage

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Tue May 03, 2016 12:01 pm

HI David,

It is interesting that the researcher of that site refers to the Sir Alexander Livingston born abt. 1730 as the husband of Elspeth (Elizabeth), has no marriage record for them and states that Alexander Livingston and Elspeth Livingston were the parents of James Livingston and Sarah Wood of East Lothian. Interestingly the marriage record of Alexander Livingston and Elizabeth Hog or Hogg of 1751 of Tranent Parish, East Lothian is not mentioned though their son as indicated in the Tranent Parish records is linked to this Alexander Livingston and Elspeth Hog and this aristocratic line connected I think to a West Lothian Livingston family. What Happened to Alexander Livingston and Elizabeth Hog Tranent parish, East Lothian. It does seem likely that Alexander and his ancestors lived elsewhere than Tranent Parish before the 1751 marriage but I am not sure that anyone can easily maker the connection that James Livingston of Tranent Parish, East Lothian who married Sarah Wood is the son of Alexander Livingston son Sir Robert Livingston of Bedlormie. The assumption also seems to be that Tranent Parish, East Lothian James Livingston's father was Alexander Livingston born abt. 1730 a Sir Alexander Livingston son of Sir Robert Livingston of Bedlormie. Not sure how that can be proven. Interestingly the marriage record of James Parent's Alexander Livingston and Elizabeth of Tranent Parish, East Lothian in 1751 is not mentioned nor is documentation mentioning that Sir Robert Livingston's son Alexander was a resident in the 1750's in Tranent Parish, East Lothian which is the case according to the marriage record of Jame's parents. Robert's son Sir Alexander actually is mentioned briefly here in this article and is residing in the 1780's at their ancestral home at the village of Bedlormie in West Lothian. I suspect your ancestor Alexander and his wife Elizabeth Hog were residents of Tranent Parish, East Lothian while Sir Alexander no apparent relation lived at the families ancestral home in the village of Bedlormie and they are probably not the same family. I am sorry about that if I am correct as it would be interesting if you were descended from that aristocratic family but all I can say is that I am pretty certain that Sir
Alexander Livingston of Bedlormie in West Lothian b. abt. 1730 is not the Alexander Livingston who married Elizabeth Hog in 1751 and resided in Tranent Parish, East Lothian and had a son James Livingston b. 1763 of Tranent Parish, East Lothian who married Sarah Wood your ancestors. Elspeth is a just a variation of Elizabeth and Elspeth Hog or Hogg was the wife of the Tranent parish Alexander Livingston I am pretty certain. I don't think that was the wife of Sir Alexander Livingston of Bedlormie, West Lothian.

http://www.falkirklocalhistorysociety.c ... php?id=124

Again I am sorry to be disappointing.

regards,

Donald
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Re: John Livingston and Helen Cockburn Marriage

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Tue May 03, 2016 4:03 pm

Hi David,
I am hoping this info is of some help. I am sorry to be the bearer of disappointing news.
There was no marriage record that I could find for Alexander Livingston of Bedlormie (Bedlormy) and Westquarter but from the birth/baptism records of his children it is revealed that his wife was Ann Atkinson and that Alexander and Ann were residents of Bedlormie in Torphichen Parish, West Lothian. I am pretty certain this is not the Alexander Livingston who was a father of your ancestor James Livington who lived in Tranent Parish, East Lothian and was married to Sarah Wood. One clearly resided at Bedlormie in Torphichen Parish, West Lothian while the other your Alexander resided in Tranent Parish, East Lothian around the same time it would seem.

these were some of their family I located in the Torphichen Parish, West Lothian records:
William Livingstone b. 1767
Thomas Livingston b. 1769
John Robert Livingston b. 1771
Thurstanius Livingston b. 1772

Torphichen Parish, West Lothian Records
The William Livingston birth/baptism record gives some info on this other aristocratic Alexander Livingston from West Lothian
" Alexander Livingston at Bedlormy had a son born in Bedlormy House on the 22th of October (1767) and baptized there on the 26th of the said month called William before these witnesses William Livingstone of Westquarter etc......

"To Alexander Livingston of Westquarter and Anna Atkinson a son called John Robert Livingston July 9th, 1771

http://www.stravaiging.com/history/cast ... rmie-house

regards,

Donald
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Re: John Livingston and Helen Cockburn Marriage

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Tue May 03, 2016 9:11 pm

Hi David,

To recap a bit this is probably your ancestral line. The last generation (William Livingston and Margaret Innes) is somewhat speculative but as they were earliest and only Livingston family in Tranent parish in that generation preceding Alexander who married Elizabeth Hog. As there are no birth or baptism records to prove that I am somewhat shaky ground but I think this is most likely scenario.I am thinking they may be the actual parents of ancestor Alexander Livingston who married Elizabeth Hog in Tranent Parish, East Lothian in 1751. I think it is a pretty good guess though I concede their is no surviving birth or baptismal record that links them to your ancestor Alexander Livington.
Early Scottish Ancestral Line of David Wyse Livingston Updated with additions
1. William Livingston and Margaret Innes m. May 8, 1730 in Tranent Parish, East Lothian , Scotland (Probably)
2. Alexander Livingston b. unknown m.December 25, 1751 in Tranent Parish, East Lothian Elizabeth Hog b. Aug. 9, 1732 baptized Aug. 11, 1732 in Tranent Parish, East Lothian, Scotland Parents: Alexander Hog and Isabell Morison of Tranent Parish, East Lothian
3. James Livingston b. Aug. 26, 1763 in Tranent Parish, East Lothian m. 1780's (no marriage record) Sarah Wood b. Sept. 20, 1759 baptized Sept. 30, 1759 in Tranent Parish, East Lothian Parents: John Wood and Janet Bee of Tranent Parish, East Lothian
4. John Livingston b.1801 or 1806 in Tranent Parish, East Lothian d. August 21, 1875 Chesterhill, Cranston Parish, Midlothian m.June 30, 1833 in New Battle, Midlothian, Helen Cockburn of Cranston Parish, Midlothian

There was a four letter village in Tranent Parish named in the 1751 marriage record of Alexander Livingston and Elizabeth Hog but I could not be sure what is was as the handwriting was hard to read. I thought it said Eden but I don't think that was it. Anyways as far as I can take you back your Livingston family story begins in Tranent Parish, East Lothian to be sure. Before that I am not certain.

regards,

Donald
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Re: John Livingston and Helen Cockburn Marriage

Postby D.W.Livingston » Wed May 04, 2016 11:29 pm

Thank you Donald for all that work and research. I am not disappointed in finding that I am not part of the aristocratic Livingston's. My main goal is to see how far back I can go with my line and you have made it possible to get it back nearly to 1730 with the speculative William and Margaret.

Thank you so much. :)
David Wyse Livingston
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Re: John Livingston and Helen Cockburn Marriage

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Thu May 05, 2016 12:38 am

Hi David,

One other thing that I have not been able to use as a clue so far but may be of some significance is that an Andrew Livingston of Tranent Parish is a witness to a number of baptisms of the children of Alexander Livingston and his wife Elizabeth Hog. I assume he may be a relation of Alexanders possibly a brother. This is all I know and that an Andrew Livingston appears once in the Tranent Parish baptism records in 1747 when Andrew Livingston and his wife Margaret Taylor's child Andrew Livingston Jr. is baptized. This precedes the marriage of your ancestor Alexander Livingston and his wife Elizabeth Hog which took place about 4 years later in Tranent Parish. I am looking for any pieces in this puzzle that might help us to verify the connection between Alexander and any other Livingstons in particular William Livingston and Margaret Innes who as far as I can tell don't seem to have been born in Tranent Parish and must have come from some place else. The one problem with William Livingston and Margaret Innes is that neither Alexander nor this Andrew Livingston have a baptismal record that links them with William and Margaret Innes. So I am operating somewhat on shaky ground that some baptism records of William Livingston and Margaret Innes are missing and that since they are the only Livingstons of that next generation preceding Alexander and Andrew and the only Livingston couple residing in Tranent circa 1730 when they were married that they could be Alexander and Andrew's parents. So it is a big maybe just so you know.

The other thing I wanted to tell you is that you have two Australian cousins who contacted the forum a few years ago. Well distant cousins actually. These two are descended from William Livingston born in 1815 in Tranent Parish a coal miner who resided most of his life in Tranent Parish and was a son of Alexander Livingston b. 1789 and his wife Janet Mark. Alexander of Coal Nook, Tranent was an older brother of your ancestor John Livingston born 1801 who left Tranent East Lothian and moved to Cranston Parish, Midlothian apparently in the 1830's. William Livingston coal miner of Tranent coal Nook would have been your ancestor John Livingston's nephew just so you know. William's son David and his wife Jessie Stout settled in New South Wales Australia around 1884 and these two chaps who contacted the forum are descendants of this David Livingston (1856-1901) born in Tranent Parish. I have to take a second look at his family tree a see precisely how I linked him to a branch of this Tranent Parish Livingstons. It was several years ago. These other two I was going through and updating their ancestral line in some places just yesterday, so I could not help but notice that you share some of the same ancestors in Tranent Parish, East Lothian.

regards,

Donald
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Re: John Livingston and Helen Cockburn Marriage

Postby D.W.Livingston » Fri May 06, 2016 10:18 pm

That is Amazing Donald, thank you again.

I was wondering, since I am going over and will now be stopping in Tranent Parish to take pictures, etc. is it possible to talk to someone locally about old records, or do you believe that everything has been moved and scanned into National Records of Scotland (ie. Scotland's People). I am unsure of the process of looking at actual records, or maybe microfiche.

Thank you again,
David
David Wyse Livingston
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Re: John Livingston and Helen Cockburn Marriage

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Wed May 11, 2016 12:20 pm

Hi David,
Yes I think you might want to make some inqueries and contact the local historian before you arrive and visit the local history centre at Tranent when you are in Scotland. Not sure if there is any additional information to be found regarding your Livingston family, but you certainly may learn more about the Coal neuk or nook? where Janet Mark widow of Alexander Livingston and their family son William Livingston coalminer and the other children of ALexander and Jane including your ancestor John Livingston a brother of coalminer William who subsequently moved to Cranston Parish, Midlothian.

What you might want to consider doing is checking out Tranent Parish in particular the Coal Nook area or Coal Neuk as it seems to be spelled. There is a street I noticed in the town of Tranent itself that I assume is where this Coal Nook that widow Janet Mark (Mrs Alexander Livingston) is residing in the 1841 and 1851 Census. Her husband Alexander Livingston born 1789 would have been John Livingston's eldest brother. A good part of what you learn about the history Tranent Parish if you visit there is the coal industry and your Livingston relatives if not your ancestors were miners. I have found in my study of Livingstons in both the highlands and lowlands that a significant number of them found employment as miners. In the highlands they worked in the Western Argyll Slate mines and in the lowlands in the coal mines. And interestingly many of the families of theArgyll Livingstons that came to Nova Scotia in the early 1800's had family members who at one time or another found work in the coal mines of Nova Scotia.

Here is real estate info for property at the Coal Neuk with a helpful google map of the street and Tranent area which might prove useful if you decide to visit Tranent on you upcoming trip to Scotland. No doubt your Livingston ancestors in the 1700's and early 1800's walked some of these streets in their time. In terms of your ancestor search and visit to Scotland connecting with your ancestral past your earliest known roots are in Tranent to be sure.
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices ... Court.html
regards,

Donald
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