Coll Livingstone, the Bachuil's wife Mary Carmichael
Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:30 pm
Hi,
Can I introduce myself as this is my first posting to the forum?
I’m Tom Paterson living in Surrey, England but born in Stirling, Scotland. I do not (as yet) know of any direct ancestors who are of the Livingstone clan, but I do have descendants who hail from Lismore and some distant cousins who married into the Livingstones. I have a website, www.tompaterson.co.uk, a bit old and dated now, that has been going since 1995 and has some bits about Lismore as well as a copy of the 1881 Lismore census however, these days, my full tree can be found on Ancestry where I am mostly spreading out and working backwards to my DNA matches.
My 3x great-grandparents were all born and died in Lismore. They had common Lismorian names; viz,
Dugald McGregor (Abt. 1794 - Abt. 1853) born in Achuaran, lived at Balnagowan then died at Tirfiuir and Janet Connell (1798 – 1864) born in Balnagowan, died at Tirfuir.
Duncan Buchanan (1793-1860), born in Colinanbard, died in Balnagowan and his wife Mary Carmichael (1796-1871), born in Balure, died in Balnagowan.
It is this last Mary Carmichael the concerns me and is the reason for this post. I believe it was my Mary who was baptised on 29 Feb 1796, daughter to John Carmichael and Mary Carmichael in Balure, and who married Duncan Buchanan. The problem is that you have this on the Livingstone family tree page:
“COLL LIVINGSTONE OF BACHUIL, Baron of the Bachuil, b. 16 Jan. 1773 at Bachuil; m. 1812, Mary Carmichael, b. 29 Feb. 1796 at Balure, Lismore, and had issue,”
I can see why you have selected this Mary, because her age would be 45 in the 1841 census at Bachuil, near the age of 40 that was recorded, even though an age of 45 should not be rounded down. Can you tell me where did the marriage in 1812 come from? Was that just based on the first child Anne’s birth in 1814? Is there any other evidence you have that I don’t know of because I’m convinced I’ve got this right?
I can follow Mary through each of the census returns to her death in 1871 in Balnagowan with the recorded ages matching almost perfectly:
1796, baptism 29 Feb 1796, so birth sometime before that; usually within a couple of weeks at most
1841, age 40 (this census rounded down the ages over 15 to the nearest 5)
1851, age 55
1861, age 65
1871, age 75
Death, Nov 1871, age 76 (Informant was son Dugald Buchanan, recording her parents as John Carmichael and Mary Carmichael)
Other evidence is through my DNA matches. I have 5 DNA matches that have a confirmed lineage back to Dugald Carmichael (Abt. 1783 – 1853) who was brother to my Mary, and another 30 DNA matches who share a DNA match with those 5 but do not have a well enough developed tree of their own to confirm their lineage
So who was Coll was married to?
As Ann was the name of Coll's first daughter it is possible that was Mary's mother name but I've looked for Carmichael families with a mother named Ann but don't see any sensible candidates in the right time-frame.
In my opinion one of the most likely is a Mary Carmichael baptised 18 Jan 1787 to Hugh Carmichael and Sarah McColl in Inverfolla, Appin. On 5 Feb 1794 a Euphie was baptised to Hugh Carmichael and Sarah McColl in Achuaran, Duncan 1776, Dugald 1797. If this is the correct Mary for Coll’s wife then she would have been age 53, rounded down to 50 in the 1841 census so we’d have to accept that the census was wrong recording Mary's ages as 40 rather than 50. Downside is that Coll did not have a son named Hugh as you would expect.
As Ann was the name of Coll's first daughter it is possible that this was Mary's mother name. I've looked for Carmichael families with a mother named Ann but don't see any sensible candidates in the right time-frame.
There was also a Mary “born on 14 Oct 1787 to Hugh Carmichael and Unknown McColl in Achuaran, Lismore”, I believe this one was the Mary who died in 1855, age 67, whose mother was Catherine McColl. She was the wife of Dugald Carmichael, my 4th great-uncle mentioned above.
Anyway, sorry for prattling on, let me know what you think.
Tom
Can I introduce myself as this is my first posting to the forum?
I’m Tom Paterson living in Surrey, England but born in Stirling, Scotland. I do not (as yet) know of any direct ancestors who are of the Livingstone clan, but I do have descendants who hail from Lismore and some distant cousins who married into the Livingstones. I have a website, www.tompaterson.co.uk, a bit old and dated now, that has been going since 1995 and has some bits about Lismore as well as a copy of the 1881 Lismore census however, these days, my full tree can be found on Ancestry where I am mostly spreading out and working backwards to my DNA matches.
My 3x great-grandparents were all born and died in Lismore. They had common Lismorian names; viz,
Dugald McGregor (Abt. 1794 - Abt. 1853) born in Achuaran, lived at Balnagowan then died at Tirfiuir and Janet Connell (1798 – 1864) born in Balnagowan, died at Tirfuir.
Duncan Buchanan (1793-1860), born in Colinanbard, died in Balnagowan and his wife Mary Carmichael (1796-1871), born in Balure, died in Balnagowan.
It is this last Mary Carmichael the concerns me and is the reason for this post. I believe it was my Mary who was baptised on 29 Feb 1796, daughter to John Carmichael and Mary Carmichael in Balure, and who married Duncan Buchanan. The problem is that you have this on the Livingstone family tree page:
“COLL LIVINGSTONE OF BACHUIL, Baron of the Bachuil, b. 16 Jan. 1773 at Bachuil; m. 1812, Mary Carmichael, b. 29 Feb. 1796 at Balure, Lismore, and had issue,”
I can see why you have selected this Mary, because her age would be 45 in the 1841 census at Bachuil, near the age of 40 that was recorded, even though an age of 45 should not be rounded down. Can you tell me where did the marriage in 1812 come from? Was that just based on the first child Anne’s birth in 1814? Is there any other evidence you have that I don’t know of because I’m convinced I’ve got this right?
I can follow Mary through each of the census returns to her death in 1871 in Balnagowan with the recorded ages matching almost perfectly:
1796, baptism 29 Feb 1796, so birth sometime before that; usually within a couple of weeks at most
1841, age 40 (this census rounded down the ages over 15 to the nearest 5)
1851, age 55
1861, age 65
1871, age 75
Death, Nov 1871, age 76 (Informant was son Dugald Buchanan, recording her parents as John Carmichael and Mary Carmichael)
Other evidence is through my DNA matches. I have 5 DNA matches that have a confirmed lineage back to Dugald Carmichael (Abt. 1783 – 1853) who was brother to my Mary, and another 30 DNA matches who share a DNA match with those 5 but do not have a well enough developed tree of their own to confirm their lineage
So who was Coll was married to?
As Ann was the name of Coll's first daughter it is possible that was Mary's mother name but I've looked for Carmichael families with a mother named Ann but don't see any sensible candidates in the right time-frame.
In my opinion one of the most likely is a Mary Carmichael baptised 18 Jan 1787 to Hugh Carmichael and Sarah McColl in Inverfolla, Appin. On 5 Feb 1794 a Euphie was baptised to Hugh Carmichael and Sarah McColl in Achuaran, Duncan 1776, Dugald 1797. If this is the correct Mary for Coll’s wife then she would have been age 53, rounded down to 50 in the 1841 census so we’d have to accept that the census was wrong recording Mary's ages as 40 rather than 50. Downside is that Coll did not have a son named Hugh as you would expect.
As Ann was the name of Coll's first daughter it is possible that this was Mary's mother name. I've looked for Carmichael families with a mother named Ann but don't see any sensible candidates in the right time-frame.
There was also a Mary “born on 14 Oct 1787 to Hugh Carmichael and Unknown McColl in Achuaran, Lismore”, I believe this one was the Mary who died in 1855, age 67, whose mother was Catherine McColl. She was the wife of Dugald Carmichael, my 4th great-uncle mentioned above.
Anyway, sorry for prattling on, let me know what you think.
Tom