Re: Livingstones of Reudle, Isle of Mull
Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 5:41 pm
Hi Jane,
Thanks for pointing out to me. So many postings in the past it is hard to remember them all. Thank you so much for that.
I am including below a link to the familytreedna Livingston group listing an example of the variety of Livingston test results based on the results of some Livingstone and others that whose results were organized and grouped. It does not of course all those who are matching in each of these match groups necessarily. Your brother is not a part of this particular familytreedna discussion group and that is why his results were not posted probably here. I think you probably have to be a member of that discussion group or something like that. But you can in this list of match groups the one Scots R1b your brother would be in. You can also see some of those in the Bachuil Livingstone group, the Parker Livingstone which my Livingston cousin is in and the Dr. Livingstone match group as many others identified Y DNA match groups most of include Livingstons and other matching families not named Livingston.
Included I see a group Scots R1b you are referring to which I assume has DNA marker results similar to yours. Some of those on this list are Livingstons many of whom have a lowland Livingston roots and are not connected to the Bachuil Livingstones or to the other Western Argyllshire Livingstones that are of known Maclea Livingstone clan origin. A third match group connected with Dr. Livingstone's ancestors who resided in Southern Argyllshire and a few in Mull in the 1700's I have also studied, but your Livingston family is one of the first that I come across which does not match with either the Bachuil Livingstone Match group, The Parker Livingstone (Mull/Morvern) Group or the Dr. Livingstone DNA match group. Your brothers results and your definite family history in Reudle, Mull but not matching the three most well known Y DNA match groups for Livingstons of 18th and 19th century origin I think indicates that your family although not matching with the Dr. Livingstone match group like these Livingstons of 18th century Southern Argyllshire and Mull likely were among those Livingston families not related the native Argyllshire Maclea Livignstones who arrived in Argyllshire in the 1600's with those South western lowland Livingston families that chose to settle in the early 1600's not in nearby Ulster, Ireland but on Isle of Islay in Southern Argyll. Some of these families later made their way before the early 1700's north to Mull and lived in close proximity with my own Maclea (Mconlea) ancestors who later with the rest of the Argyllshire adopted the name Livingstone also spelt Livingston. It is not a well known fact but it seems that a few families of Lowland Livingstons from South western Scotland some apparently not related some related to DR. Livingstones ancestral group as others such as your family settled likely in the early 1600's in both Southern Argyllshire such as Isle of Islay and also in County Down and Antrim, Ireland during what is known in Ireland. A study of the matches in the Dr. Livingstone Match group shows a number of matches with both Islay southern Argylll Livingstons and sure enough a number of Livington families claiming 17th century Ulster Ireland lowland Scottish presbyterian Livingston origins. It should be noted that with the R1b match group which also includes Livingstons some of them are definitely not of ancestors of lived who highland Argyllshire like your family did. Some I think are actually of Lowland Livingston origin and some may have settled in Ulster Ireland orginally living in lowland Scotland. The links possibly with some Macleays of Ross and Cromarty origin now being studied I do not think links them to the Maclea Livingstones connected to both the ancestors of those in the Bachuil Livingstone match group and those of Mull and Morvern Maclea Livingstone descent matching with a match known as the Parker Livingstone group. I have said in the past that I really don't see that the Y DNA results of any of the Ross and Cromarty Macleays so far are closely matching with those tested in the Bachuil Livingstone Y DNA match and the other Maclea Livingstone most common Y DNA match the Parker Livingstone Group most Livingstons of 18th and 19th century Western Argyllshire origin.
I think we have found the three main matching group amongst the descendants of Livingstons who are known from the records of those Livingstons who resided in 18th and 19th century and they seem to be the Bachuil Maclea Livingstone Match group, The Parker Livingstone Maclea Livingston match group and the Dr. Livingstone Match group. Almost all with one or two exceptions in the last 15 years that I was aware matched with these 3 DNA match group. That being said I never ruled the possibility for some reason that other Livingston with family record linking them to 18th and 19th century Livingston family residing in Western Argyll like Mull in your families case come come up in the future. There was a definite pattern with Livingstons tested of Western Argyllshire origins to match primarily with the three groups I mentioned but i knew sooner or later we would get a Livingston such as your brother who had records also confirming Mull, Argyllshire ancestry that would not be a match with the three primary Argyllshire LIivngton match groups. The reason clearly that your brother does match with the Bachuil Livingstones, Parker LIvingstones largely of Mull and Morvern and other western Argyllshire origins and the Dr. Livingstone group is that your Livingston family although also residing in Western Argyllshire in the 18th and 19th century are not related to any of these Livington match groups but likely in my opinion share with the Dr. LIvingstone group the likelihood that they were part of the lowland presbyterian scot migration into both Ulster Ireland and the little known settlement in the 16th century into neighbouring Isle of Islay and Southern Argyllshire. Some of these lowland Livingstons that ended up in the ISLe of Islay Southern Argyllshire in the 16th century rather than settling in nearby County Down, Ulster Ireland as many lowland settlers did at that time, some of them I have found evidence of ended up migrating to Mull by the early 1700's. In the early 1700's records for Mull while the Maclea LIvingstones still refer to themselves as Maclea or the more gaelic Mconlea a few of their neighbours go by the lowland name "Livingstoun" years before that name became fully adopted by highland Macleas. Prior to that Livingston was a family name of an aristocrat family in lowland Stirlingshire, though by the 1600's and probably before that a number of lowland families of more common origins apparently adopted the name of the prominent aristocratic Scottish family as their own.
Your brother's results clearly show that his match group consists of other Livingston families so it is definitely a match group with Livingstons but I think more research needs to done as 18th and 19th and earlier origins of the other Livingstons matching with this group which you brother match with. I unfortunately have not been in communication with any the Livingstons matching with group and only with gentleman who believes he is of Macleay ancestry matching with this group from Holland. I think perhaps if we were able to contact some of your brothers matching we could confirm whether any of them are of documented Argyllshire or Ulster Ireland ancestry or lowland ancestry. Some of those may be difficult to contact however, but if would be worth at try. My hunch is that a number of them are of lowland origin who Livingston ancestors later settled to Ulster Ireland or Argyllshire or whose ancestors remained in lowland Scotland. Some invariably may not know where in the British Isles their ancestors resided in the 1700's as no family records survive, but it would interesting to find out what they know as there a good number of Livingstons in that R1b group which your brother also matches with as you have pointed out.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/li ... n=yresults
regards,
Donald
Thanks for pointing out to me. So many postings in the past it is hard to remember them all. Thank you so much for that.
I am including below a link to the familytreedna Livingston group listing an example of the variety of Livingston test results based on the results of some Livingstone and others that whose results were organized and grouped. It does not of course all those who are matching in each of these match groups necessarily. Your brother is not a part of this particular familytreedna discussion group and that is why his results were not posted probably here. I think you probably have to be a member of that discussion group or something like that. But you can in this list of match groups the one Scots R1b your brother would be in. You can also see some of those in the Bachuil Livingstone group, the Parker Livingstone which my Livingston cousin is in and the Dr. Livingstone match group as many others identified Y DNA match groups most of include Livingstons and other matching families not named Livingston.
Included I see a group Scots R1b you are referring to which I assume has DNA marker results similar to yours. Some of those on this list are Livingstons many of whom have a lowland Livingston roots and are not connected to the Bachuil Livingstones or to the other Western Argyllshire Livingstones that are of known Maclea Livingstone clan origin. A third match group connected with Dr. Livingstone's ancestors who resided in Southern Argyllshire and a few in Mull in the 1700's I have also studied, but your Livingston family is one of the first that I come across which does not match with either the Bachuil Livingstone Match group, The Parker Livingstone (Mull/Morvern) Group or the Dr. Livingstone DNA match group. Your brothers results and your definite family history in Reudle, Mull but not matching the three most well known Y DNA match groups for Livingstons of 18th and 19th century origin I think indicates that your family although not matching with the Dr. Livingstone match group like these Livingstons of 18th century Southern Argyllshire and Mull likely were among those Livingston families not related the native Argyllshire Maclea Livignstones who arrived in Argyllshire in the 1600's with those South western lowland Livingston families that chose to settle in the early 1600's not in nearby Ulster, Ireland but on Isle of Islay in Southern Argyll. Some of these families later made their way before the early 1700's north to Mull and lived in close proximity with my own Maclea (Mconlea) ancestors who later with the rest of the Argyllshire adopted the name Livingstone also spelt Livingston. It is not a well known fact but it seems that a few families of Lowland Livingstons from South western Scotland some apparently not related some related to DR. Livingstones ancestral group as others such as your family settled likely in the early 1600's in both Southern Argyllshire such as Isle of Islay and also in County Down and Antrim, Ireland during what is known in Ireland. A study of the matches in the Dr. Livingstone Match group shows a number of matches with both Islay southern Argylll Livingstons and sure enough a number of Livington families claiming 17th century Ulster Ireland lowland Scottish presbyterian Livingston origins. It should be noted that with the R1b match group which also includes Livingstons some of them are definitely not of ancestors of lived who highland Argyllshire like your family did. Some I think are actually of Lowland Livingston origin and some may have settled in Ulster Ireland orginally living in lowland Scotland. The links possibly with some Macleays of Ross and Cromarty origin now being studied I do not think links them to the Maclea Livingstones connected to both the ancestors of those in the Bachuil Livingstone match group and those of Mull and Morvern Maclea Livingstone descent matching with a match known as the Parker Livingstone group. I have said in the past that I really don't see that the Y DNA results of any of the Ross and Cromarty Macleays so far are closely matching with those tested in the Bachuil Livingstone Y DNA match and the other Maclea Livingstone most common Y DNA match the Parker Livingstone Group most Livingstons of 18th and 19th century Western Argyllshire origin.
I think we have found the three main matching group amongst the descendants of Livingstons who are known from the records of those Livingstons who resided in 18th and 19th century and they seem to be the Bachuil Maclea Livingstone Match group, The Parker Livingstone Maclea Livingston match group and the Dr. Livingstone Match group. Almost all with one or two exceptions in the last 15 years that I was aware matched with these 3 DNA match group. That being said I never ruled the possibility for some reason that other Livingston with family record linking them to 18th and 19th century Livingston family residing in Western Argyll like Mull in your families case come come up in the future. There was a definite pattern with Livingstons tested of Western Argyllshire origins to match primarily with the three groups I mentioned but i knew sooner or later we would get a Livingston such as your brother who had records also confirming Mull, Argyllshire ancestry that would not be a match with the three primary Argyllshire LIivngton match groups. The reason clearly that your brother does match with the Bachuil Livingstones, Parker LIvingstones largely of Mull and Morvern and other western Argyllshire origins and the Dr. Livingstone group is that your Livingston family although also residing in Western Argyllshire in the 18th and 19th century are not related to any of these Livington match groups but likely in my opinion share with the Dr. LIvingstone group the likelihood that they were part of the lowland presbyterian scot migration into both Ulster Ireland and the little known settlement in the 16th century into neighbouring Isle of Islay and Southern Argyllshire. Some of these lowland Livingstons that ended up in the ISLe of Islay Southern Argyllshire in the 16th century rather than settling in nearby County Down, Ulster Ireland as many lowland settlers did at that time, some of them I have found evidence of ended up migrating to Mull by the early 1700's. In the early 1700's records for Mull while the Maclea LIvingstones still refer to themselves as Maclea or the more gaelic Mconlea a few of their neighbours go by the lowland name "Livingstoun" years before that name became fully adopted by highland Macleas. Prior to that Livingston was a family name of an aristocrat family in lowland Stirlingshire, though by the 1600's and probably before that a number of lowland families of more common origins apparently adopted the name of the prominent aristocratic Scottish family as their own.
Your brother's results clearly show that his match group consists of other Livingston families so it is definitely a match group with Livingstons but I think more research needs to done as 18th and 19th and earlier origins of the other Livingstons matching with this group which you brother match with. I unfortunately have not been in communication with any the Livingstons matching with group and only with gentleman who believes he is of Macleay ancestry matching with this group from Holland. I think perhaps if we were able to contact some of your brothers matching we could confirm whether any of them are of documented Argyllshire or Ulster Ireland ancestry or lowland ancestry. Some of those may be difficult to contact however, but if would be worth at try. My hunch is that a number of them are of lowland origin who Livingston ancestors later settled to Ulster Ireland or Argyllshire or whose ancestors remained in lowland Scotland. Some invariably may not know where in the British Isles their ancestors resided in the 1700's as no family records survive, but it would interesting to find out what they know as there a good number of Livingstons in that R1b group which your brother also matches with as you have pointed out.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/li ... n=yresults
regards,
Donald