McKinlays at Kintyre in Argyll and Rothesay Bute

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi All,

Going through the 1841 Scottish Census I have noticed significant numbers of McKinlays at Rothesay, Bute where Mcleas or Macleas were also noted. Also West of Bute in neighbouring South Argylshire at Kintyre in Campbelltown and three nearby Kintyre parishes there were a large number of McKinlays. I strong suspect the Kintyre McKinlays are connected to the Rothesay, Bute McKinlays. What I am curious about is how these Southern Argyll and Bute McKinlays connect with the McLeas we also find at Rothesay Bute. Are these McKinlays a branch of a Maclea group and retained this spelling while others went with Maclea. The fact that this group of McKinlays I have named Kintyre/Rothesay McKinlays are in close proximity to the Rothesay Bute McLeas is interesting.

In at least one case Kyle and I noted with great interest that a Dougal McKinley married a Isabel McLea on April 2,1698 at Rothesay Bute. Perhaps this indicates even at this early date these Rothesay McKinleys and McLea were distinct family groups if not entirely distinct from one another but living in close proximity. I dont have all the answers as yet on this one but I think it worth pointing out and worthy of further research and discussion. I also found it interesting that in the 1841 Census I noticed that these families seemed to prefer the Mckinlay spelling to the Mckinley spelling.

regards,

Donald

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi All,

The earliest records I found for McKinlays at Rothesay Bute was in the 1690's. Other McKinlays seem to have made their home in Renfrewshire and Dunbartonshire and throughout lowland Scotland including Ayr. Across from Ayrshire of course is the North of Ireland and there were McKinlays or Mckinleys that settled in Antrim County sometime probably in the 1600's with other Scottish settlers.

regards,

Donald

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi All,

It is interesting to note that according to Rev. Duncan Maclea's 1743 history of the Macleas he states that the last Baron Maclea of Lindsaig of the Lindsaig Macleas who was buried at Kilfinan had a brother Donald Maclea and his son Archibald McLea settled at Campbelltown, Kintyre and another son Donald McLea settled at Rothesay Bute. Is there a McKinlay-Maclea connection here or is there proximity to each other just an odd coincidence?

regards,

Donald

[R. Livingstone]

..... I also found it interesting that in the 1841 Census I noticed that these families seemed to prefer the Mckinlay spelling to the Mckinley spelling.

regards,

Donald

Hi, Donald -

Interesting comment on the family’s ‘preference’ for one spelling variation over another. In my own limited research (as an amateur) I have noted numerous spelling variations for my own family’s surname – sometimes three different spellings over time for the same person. I have attributed it to simple illiteracy – the person being counted for the census didn’t know how to spell his own name, and so relied upon the census takers. They in turn had to rely upon the sound of the name the resident gave them – and often had their own notions regarding spelling. There may have also been complications with language (English vs. Highland Gaelic) or differing accents in speech over different districts. I imagine there were even cases where the resident might have been able to spell – but was never asked for a spelling by the official. It might be interesting to find out if there are accurate statistics for literacy in Scotland, Canada, etc. for the 1700’s and 1800’s?

Best Regards -
Ralph Livingstone

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Ralph,

Welcome back. We may be distant cousins. Seems the closest match in my cousin's results at the 67 marker level distance of 3 is a descendant of Donald and Mary Livingston of Lot 65, QUeens County, Prince Edward Island. They were of course also from Morvern as was our ancestor my great-great-great grandfather Miles Livingston.

The Mckinley info out there seems to indicate that was an Archibald Mckinlay of Kilfinan b. 1734 and also a Donald MckInlay of Kilfinan. To me that is the clincher that the family and descendants of the Lindsaig Macleas as was discussed in the 1743 Maclea history by Reverend Duncan Mclea for whatever reason became known as McKinlays or Mckinleys. I would assume also that the Macleas that lived in the same localities in Kintyre and Rothesay for example are essentially kin that for whatever reason did not go with the McKinlay/Mckinlay spelling. I have traced these Mckinlays and McLeas from their parish localities and they seem to be very likely one and the same people. At least I think so?

regards,

Donald

[R. Livingstone]

Hi Ralph,

Welcome back. We may be distant cousins. Seems the closest match in my cousin's results at the 67 marker level distance of 3 is a descendant of Donald and Mary Livingston of Lot 65, QUeens County, Prince Edward Island. They were of course also from Morvern as was our ancestor my great-great-great grandfather Miles Livingston.

....

Very interesting, Donald!

I still haven’t yet gotton around to joining the DNA project – I have quite a number of my own long-term projects that I’m working on simultaneously, and I have to pick and choose where I make progress, based on available “disposable” funds. I have planned on setting aside enough for the 67 marker test within the next few months though. Is the “Donald and Mary” descendant who has been tested part of the “Highland Line” grouping? I’m not clear how close a “distance of 3” is. Does that translate roughly to a certain range of numbers of generations to a common ancestor? Or ???

Thanks for the welcome back –

Ralph

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Ralph,
Thats good to hear. I found out which Livingstons I was connected to and which I was not ancestrally speaking so it was worth it I think. I had three theories as to how my ancestor Miles Livington b.1775 would connect with other highland Livington families and one of the three appears to have been the correct theory. Theory no. 3 was that Miles was as he stated on a marriage record a native of Movern and would be therefore connected to local Livingston families that had lived in the Morvern/Mull area of Western Argyll and would be probably connected ancestrally to a group of ancient McLeas/Dunsleas that were associated with the Livingstons that lived in the Mull/Morvern at the time when Miles was born in the 1770's. So far I think the DNA results are heading in this direction. We have now two close matches with a Morvern conection and few with Mull connections in this highland Livington group of about eight or nine people some more closely matched than others to my cousin who was tested. They are referred to as the Parker-Livingstone group and yes Andrew and Kyle the project coordinaters have acknowledged them to be a Maclea Livingston group of highland origin. Right now I think there are two with proven Morvern origins and at least three that have Mull origins. The rest are almost certainly highland origin maclea Livingston families whereever their ancestors originated in Argyllshire.

Regarding intrepretation of how closely related these folks are to my cousin. Only the PEI Livingstone I mentioned is showing up as 67 distance of 3 and the Cape Breton Nova Scotia Livingstones I think are showing up as 67 distance of 4. I dont know that were are closely related Livingstons but likely share a Maclea ancestor some generations back in Western Argyllshire perhaps in the Mull/Morvern or when we lived elsewhere in Western Argyllshire. I should think it hard to be precise. I am no expert either on this DnA thing but simply put a 67 genetic of 3 or 67 genetic distance of 1 for instance I should think is more closely related than a genetic distance of 4 at the 67 marker level. Still some of the others in the group are more distantly related to our Livingstons that 67-4 so I was happy to see one person come in at 67-3 and a few at 67-4. Considering I am new to the DNA project I sense this is good start and it did answer the age old questions as to which families I am related to and which I am not. So I think it was worth the effort. I would have done the test earlier but I was not aware I had any Livingston cousins still living until I did not extensive research to locate them based upon our 19th century Livingston family history which I had researched and written previously. First one I contacted by phone was an elderly gentleman in his nineties who was infact a great nephew of my ancestor Miles Livingston. A couple of Miles Livingstons descendants married late in life so the connection was all that much closer generation wise than I had expected. The old gentleman knew his family history well as did I and identified his old grandfather who I knew was Miles Livingston's son.

regards,

Donald

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Ralph,
I would urge Livingstons with an ancestral connection to Western Argyllshire as many do to find yourselves a detailed map of the County of Argyllshire so that you can better familiarize yourselves with towns and villages of Western Argyll in the Mull, Morvern, Island of Lismore, Appin etc area where many of our ancestors originated. Better still invest in a detailed atlas of Scotland. In a later postings I may have more details on this but the one I have that I really like is the Automobile Association`s `Regional Atlas of Britain:Scotland` based on Ordinance Survey maps with a scale of 1 inch=5miles. If you have found the locality of your ancestor and want more detail there are of course ordinance survey maps some of them from the 1800`s that are even more detailed but a few basic atlas of Scotland that covers the small towns and villages this one is pretty good. This one however was published in 1985 and at least this edition is likely out of print. Perhaps there is newer edition out there because I really like the map they have for Western Argyllshire area although only a few places are marked on the Isle of Lismore which is disappointing. Morvern however is well marked with many of the old settlement areas still marked on the maps which I pleased with.

regards,

Donald

[Jill Richmond]

I have been following this thread with a certain amount of interest as I had a cousin whose middle name was MacKinlay. Her parents seemed to think that there was a Livingston connection. I won't go into the ramifications of the Clan's origins, but in his book, The Tartans of the Clans and Families of Scotland, Sir Thomas Innes of Learney, the then Lyon says, 'it is probable the name Mackinlay embraces some of the Macleay clan. Some of the modern Mackinlays insist of accenting the "lay" of the name."

Regards to you all,
Jill

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Jill,

Some of the Macleays/Macleas were originally Appin Area Macleas that were pushed out by the Stewarts of Appin ending up in Mackenzie territory and in the north of Scotland. I did some research trying to trace these lost Macleays in the early 1800`s.These displaced Macleas would be connected to other Macleas that remained in Western Argyll that later unlike them became Livingstons in the 1700`s. Then there are these other McKinlay/McKinley McLeas whom I am finding where according to the 1743 Maclea history by Rev. Maclea ended up as he said in Bute and Kintyre, southern Argyll with no apparent direct connection to our Western Argyll Macleas. If Rev. Maclea is correct the Bute and Kintyre McKinlays that are still apparently on Kintyre are connected to the Macleas of the last Baron Maclea of Lindsaig and his brother Donald Maclea. Apparently they or their subsequent descendants for the most part when the spelling McKinlay though there were apparently judging from the Rothesay Bute census that prefered Maclea. But i think that the Lord Lyon of the 1930`s was informed that there Mackinlays who were actually of the Maclea family or Macleas and I would agree with him on that. The evidence in the LDS records from the 1600`s and 1700`s in the Bute and Kintyre,southern Argyll area is pretty compelling. I was sure before last night. I should do a quick summary of Maclea variations by Argyll and Bute localities from the 1841 Census just to give one an idea of the spelling variations that even as late as 1841 existed in these areas for Macleas.
regards,

Donald