Which MacDunnsleibhe?

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craig
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:40 pm

Which MacDunnsleibhe?

Post by craig »

It is commonly believed that our McLea Clan originated in Ireland. But exactly where in Ireland has not been established with certainty.
Some have postulated that our Irish ancestors derive from the O'Neill family of northwest Ireland. The theory is that an O'Neill prince married into the Dalraida family and inherited lands in Argyll.
A seond theory, one that our Clan Chief has mentioned, is that out Irish roots may derive from the old kingdom of Ulaid in northeast Ireland. The last king of Ulaid was Ruaidhri MacDunnsleibe (Rory, son of Dunsleve). After being defeated in battle by the English in the late 1110s, at least some of the family went to Argyll.
DNA evidence may support Niall's theory of a northeast Ireland migration of our ancestors to Argyll. My cousin, part of the "McWho" DNA group, recently tested for additional subclades. He is positive for the L21 mutation, which has strong tires to various Argyll Clans. However he tested negative for the M222 mutation. This mutation has been called the northwest Irish or Ul Neill mutation. Since my cousin does not have the O'Neill mutation, can we leap to a generalization that such an absence supports to northeast Ireland theory of family migration? For one, I'd love to beleive that our Clan sprang from the last King of Ulaid in northeast Ireland.
Craig McClay Wilson
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Which MacDunnsleibhe?

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Craig,
Nice to hear from someone descended from an old Maclea family. Yes "WHich MacDunnsliebhe". That is the question that has intriqued we students of Maclea Livingstone history.
I have sometimes wondered if the McDhunsliebhe settlement of our ancient ancestral lands in Western Argyll happened in more than one stage. In this scenario St. Molaug and perhaps other related clerical kin of the McDHunsliebhes of County Down arrived in Western Argyll and on the Isle of Lismore when they did in the 6th century I think it was and then descendants of the McDunslea variety sprung up from these non celibate early celtic clerics. (Sliebhe became Slea in later useage among Scots and Irish according to 19th century Western Argyll historian Archibald Campbell.) St. Molaug perhaps was related as I think has been suggested possibly to the McDhunsliebhe royal line that included Rory McDhunsliebhe and when Rory McDhunsliebhe the last of that line was defeated in the early middle ages perhaps some of his people found the offer of refuge in Western Argyll on abbey lands under the control of a cousin the Baron of Bachuil and inhabited by his kin and clan. (This is a desperate act of shere speculation on my part I fully realize and apologise for.)

I dont know if it is neccessary to believe that these McDhunsliebhes all came at once or that we are all decended from one group of them. I do agree that we are probably connected to the McDhunsliebhes that lived in the North of Ireland but that we probably more likely have a connection to Rory McDhunsliebhe's family of County Down than the O'Neils who also have an ancient history in the North of Ireland. As has been mentioned the DNA results seem to supports this view. That being said a good deal of our clan origins and subsequent history obscured in the mists of time there are no doubt many interesting details that are regretably unknown to us. We are fortunate the Reverend Maclea attempted an early history of the Macleas throughout Scotland in the 1740's and in doing so provided us with some rare and tantalizing tidbits of information regarding highland Macleas which not so long after Reverend Macleas history was written, became universally known as Highland Livingstons.

regards,

Donald
Andrew Lancaster
Posts: 69
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 4:37 pm

Re: Which MacDunnsleibhe?

Post by Andrew Lancaster »

Hi Craig

Nice to hear from you. I am wondering if your old mail address still works?

I think it is preferable to look at bigger groups of data, but the result of such a look does turn out the same: the clan's male lines appear to be typical of Argyll families, and not of Irish families.

Keep in mind that the Niall clade (R-M222) is a PART of R-L21, the same as our "MacWho" L21 group is, and also the same as the rather big "Scots" L21 group is (which contains our chief's family and many other chiefly families). However M222 is rare amongst Livingston(e)s and MacLeas; while L21 types such as "MacWho" and "Scots" are rare in Ireland.

Having said this, M222 is especially typical of northwestern Ireland, not all Ireland, and some people do profess to see more typical Scots and other types in northeastern Ireland.

I'd summarize by saying we can indeed say that genetic evidence so far does not favor Ui Neill origin to the clan.

Best Regards
Andrew
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Which MacDunnsleibhe?

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Andrew,

I wonder what happened to the ancient Picts that lived on the Island of Lismore before the McDunleas and other arrived in the area?
regards,

Donald
Andrew Lancaster
Posts: 69
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 4:37 pm

Re: Which MacDunnsleibhe?

Post by Andrew Lancaster »

Hi Donald

The problem with answering this question is that even defining the meaning of this question raises problems. Who were the Picts? For example, some would equate the word Pict in early context to "British", and some would say that the Argyll region was Gaelic oriented before written history beings.

But my best guess is that whoever was living in Lismore before the middle ages, their descendants were still there in the middle ages. I say this based upon the distinctness of the Y DNA lines which are associated with Argyll surnames, and also the fact that these lines are more strongly associated with Scotland than Ireland.

Best Regards
Andrew
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Which MacDunnsleibhe?

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Andrew,

Have you seen some of the Pict artwork on stone that survives in Scotland today? Beautiful work. I dont know how much is known about the Picts. Probably not alot. I suppose that some of them intermarried with the Celts from Ireland that moved into Argyllshire and disappeared as a distinct culture. The Island of Lismore was apparently prior to Molaug and Celtic Christians arriving there a pagan centre of great significance to the Picts apparently. Who knows what great archaelogical treasures may be buried in the sands of Lismore?

regard,

Donald
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