Livingston Tartan Being Woven?

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Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Livingston Tartan Being Woven?

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Greg,

Thats terrific. It will look great in our gallery along the other interesting Livingston related photos we have amassed in our collection. Nice work Kyle noticing it. And many thanks to Matt of the Scottish Tartan Museum of North Carolina for sharing his fine photo with the Society. A very hard to find photo of the actual weaving of our tartan I should think.

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Livingston Tartan Being Woven?

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Kyle and Greg,
Regarding the colour, among our most popular tartans we have a modern Livingstone weave which has a brighter red and green compared with ancient Livingstone which is more muted in colour with red almost going in the direction of orange at least in the scarve that I had which was ancient Livingstone. I liked it because it felt more like the colours of ancient dyes which I understand was the intent. The discussion of the ancient dyes used by our highland ancestors to reproduce colours in their tartans is an interesting topic in itselfas is the question of what tartan pattern our Maclea-Livingstones wore in more ancient times. In many cases the availability of colours were limited to what colours could be created from the dyes made from local plants. Regretably in the forty years when the tartan ban was in effect in the aftermath of the defeat of Bonnie Prince Charlie, much was forgotten and lost regarding the making of highland tartan and even more tragically in many cases what tartans had been worn prior to the ban. Of course it also believed that those highland clans that wore tartan in those times did not necessarily wear a tartan specific to their clan as most do today. For many clans that came long after. I dont know that lowland families wore tartan at all prior to the 1800's and the wave of popularity of tartan in Scotland that took place in that century.

Most of the tartans books including the various editions of the late Robert Bain's book are not very clear at all regarding the origin of the red, green and black weave that in a number of variations has become known as a Livingstone Tartan. Bain's first edition of his tartan book was published in the mid 1920's or 1930's. His book contains one of earliest colour print reproductions of our tartan in a book thought there is I think a 1906 Tartan book which has a somewhat primitive hand drawn illustration again one of the weave variations with red, green and black. So what was before? Good question. I assume that this classic red green and black tartan weeve existed well before this among our clan members in the 19th century I just have not been able to find documentation of this. Bain's publisher in his first edition mentions the source of his tartan samples coming from a certain tartan manufacter whom I have assumed might have knowledge of the Livingston tartan and perhaps even the ultimate source but that was a long time ago. I even tried to find the tartan manufacter which I think I found was still in business in Glasgow or edinburgh. The name slips my mind now. Anyways my thought at time from this was that we could at some point contact any of the modern day established tartan manufactuers and see if any might keep some sort of information on old tartan orders from the 19th century. There were of course efforts by tartan enthusiasts as far back as the late 1700's and early 1800's to locate and determine the origins of certain highland tartans but as far as I know a highland Livingstone tartan swatch was never located or submitted by our a Livingstone clan member to Cockburn or any of the other compilers of an early highland tartan collection. But I do think a wortwhile project to contact some of the old lowland tartan manufacters that were critical in the production of tartans in 19th century and early twentieth century to see if they can make any sense as to real origin or least the first recorded instance of its manufacter in more modern times.
regards,

Donald
Greg Livingston
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Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:42 pm
Location: Ankeny, IA, USA

Re: Livingston Tartan Being Woven?

Post by Greg Livingston »

Donald, Matt has done a lot of research on tartans and their origins. There are several articals he has published at albanach.org The interesting thing to me is that apparently what we know think of as clan tartans were not written down until the ban was lifted and most were designed by two brothers that "knew the actual clan tartans" from before 1745 and set themselves up as the ultimate authorities.
Greg Livingston
Clan Commissioner
Northglenn, Colorado, USA
Canadian Livingstone
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Re: Livingston Tartan Being Woven?

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

HI Greg,
No doubt most tartans specific to a particular clan came into being in the 19th century long after Culloden, though it is clear that highland clans wore tartan in 1745 and in years prior to that. After searching a few years for some leads on the history of Tartan 1003 and other Livingstone tartan of similar colours and thread count, I long since concluded it unlikely that I will find a 18th century swatch of a tartan worn by an highland Maclea-Livingstone done on a cottage loom with natural plant dyes. So I have set my sights on possibly discovering the history of the manufacturer of our tartan in the 19th and twentieth century if that is at all possible.

The problem we are facing is that there is no info out there regarding the ultimate origins of the Livingstone tartan as I dont think it is really known. Baron Livingstone has told us all that he and his family knew of the clan tartan or tartans, but alas there is no old written history on the Livingstons with information on the tartan origins and therefore still some mystery to it. We do know from historic accounts that old Donald Livingstone never went anywhere without his tartan even when as a younger man it was prohibited following the defeat of Bonnie Prince Charlie. As to what that tartan looked like however regretably no one knows.

As far as I could tell an original swatch of our highland tartan was never submitted by a clan member to those doing a through study of tartans in the early 1800's including those contacted the individual highland clan chiefs. I have so far come with no record of correspondence between Baron John Livingstone in the early 1800's and the Highland Society regarding the clan tartan for example or an original clan tartan swatch that exist in any of the original tartan books that were published in the early 1800's. I talked to someone from the Museum in North Carolina a few years ago, but still the ultimate origins of the Livingstone Tartan is yet to be discovered. At one point I followed what I thought was promising lead stating that a Livingstone tartan 1003 could be found in one of the old 19th century tartan collections but it turned out not to the be the case as I recall. None of the known old 19th century tartan books or collections to the best of my knowledge contains a Livingston swatch much to my disappointment.

I think you will find that an 18th or early 19th century swatch of a tartan wore by a highland Livingstone does not exist in any of tartan collections in Scotland as far as I can tell. But I still hold out hope that one might be found by some diligent researcher. At this point I would be happy if we could find a lead from a old established tartan manufacturer for a Livingstone tartan from the 19th century. The earliest illustration of our tartan is from the early 1900's. I thought I found a crudely drawn illustration of our tartan in an old tartan book from 1906 or 1903 but I would have check that in my old info file to be certain. I have illustrations from two books from the 1920's one from Robert Bain's first edition tartan book and another tartan book published around the same time from the Lord Lyon of that period. The original edition and subsequent editions of the Bain book feature the first good reproduction of a classic looking Livingstone tartan with a red, green and black thread weave. You have to watch out for some later editions at least one of which I noticed misprinted our tartan eliminating the green I have noticed. The earliest editions were ok.

There apparently have been a number of efforts over the years to manufacture a CLan Livingstone tartan since at least the 19th century and it would be a fantastic thing to trace the more recent history of the Livingstone tartan manufacture and collect samples or sample photos of old Livingstone kilts. Ultimately we could create a Livingstone tartan collection and compare the weaves and thread counts. Anyone out there with a really old Livingstone tartan kilt?

regards,

Donald
Jill Richmond
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Location: Galloway, S.W Scotland

Re: Livingston Tartan Being Woven?

Post by Jill Richmond »

Hi Greg,

The brothers that Matt alludes to were the Sobieski Stuarts, who passed themselves off as John Sobieski Stolberg Stuart and Charles Edward Stuart, and were a pair of frauds who claimed to have knowledge of tartans from before the Jacobite Risings. They also claimed to be grandsons of Charles III. They published a book called The Vestiarium Scoticum which was initially taken at face value, but is now accepted as a complete fabrication, although a number of tartans they invented are now accepted as clan tartans. For more info about the Sobieski Stuarts go to http://www.clanjames.com/sobieski_stuarts.htm. Thought it might interest you.

Regards,
Jill
Jill Richmond
Canadian Livingstone
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Re: Livingston Tartan Being Woven?

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Jill,
I have found that tartan inspires passionate debate. Tartan is for many an important part of Scottish clan tradition while others more cynical see it as a 19th century fad and romantic nonsense.
Interesting story about the Sobiesky Stuarts. Perhaps though they get more credit than they deserve.
To my mind the Highland Society of London certainly deserves credit for their decision in 1815 to contact highland clan chiefs and have them submit tartan swatches. Unfortunately I was not able to find any evidence that they contacted or received from Baron John Livingstone our clan chief at the time correspondence or a tartan swatch though at one time I must confess I was under the impression that a tartan swatch of a tartan 1003 or something like it might be found in the collection of the Highland Society of London.

Speaking of old tartan swatches I noticed that some of the old tartan books are now scanned and on-line.

regards,

Donald
Greg Livingston
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Location: Ankeny, IA, USA

Re: Livingston Tartan Being Woven?

Post by Greg Livingston »

Jill, Yes, that is the one I was thinking of. It has been too long since I read that so didn't remember their names. Thank you for the link.

Donald, Matt would probably have been the person you talked to in NC. He has been there for the 6 years I've know him. I've seen those scaned books that they have on line. Looked every time to see if 1003 Livingstone was in one of them. Haven't see it yet.
Greg Livingston
Clan Commissioner
Northglenn, Colorado, USA
Canadian Livingstone
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Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Livingston Tartan Being Woven?

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Greg,

There was some notion that there was an old Livingstone tartan swatch collected during the 1815-1822 period when the London Highland Society was in contact with a number of highland chief's requesting samples of tartan worn by their clans but I was not able to find a Livingstone tartan or Maclea tartan. I also tried to see if there was a record of correspondence between Baron John Livingstone during this time period and the London Highland Society but I did not find any letter or letters. I pretty much gave up hope of finding a old tartan swatch that our clansmen wore in the 18th century after that and focused more on finding out more about the more recent manufacture of of what is referred to as Livingstone tartan 1003 and 895 both apparently,established Livingstone tartans in red, green and black but with a slightly different thread count and pattern. I was hoping we could find out when they first were manufactured by lowland weavers in the 19th century having given up the probably foolish and slighty romantic notion that I would actually find a piece of ancient tartan worn by one our kinsman at the Battle of Culloden.

And so the search goes on.

Yes I think you are right. It must have been Matt. He was very helpful and as you say really knows tartan. I also seem to remember contacting Brian Winton that Baron Livingstone knows in Scotland a while back. I must tell you Baron Livingstone was very interested to learn that a photo of a Livingstone tartan being woven on a loom had been found.

regards,

Donald
Greg Livingston
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Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:42 pm
Location: Ankeny, IA, USA

Re: Livingston Tartan Being Woven?

Post by Greg Livingston »

Matt doesn't weave but does make box pleated kilts. He took the picture at the STA in Crieff the last time he was in Scotland.
Greg Livingston
Clan Commissioner
Northglenn, Colorado, USA
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beadmom
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Re: Livingston Tartan Being Woven?

Post by beadmom »

That is over the top cool!
Thanks!

Ginger
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