Isles I1c

[Andrew Lancaster4]

If Grant South is around I was hoping he could comment on the DNA for our MacAleavy from Ireland. I think it is a type he specialises in! Regards Andrew

[Grant South1]

Hello Andrew, Just returned home from business in Sydney. Will look at his results and get back to you ASAP! If Isles I1c then the view is Cruithne! All the best! Grant.

[Grant South1]

Andrew, McAleavey looks Cruithne! I believe him to be M223+, M284+, as you thought Isles I1c. This is wonderful news as we have seen similar results from the McGuinness folk of co.Down. The old Cenel of Ireland were cognatic kinship group's and not exclusive agnatic families as has often been put forward by writers. These McAleavey I1c-folk must be decended from the MacDonnsleibhe of co. Down, and carry the name accordingly. There is a founder-lineage of Cruithne in north-east Ireland, concentrated from co. Down to south Antrim. This founder lineage, known as the Dal Araide, has representative branches found in various of the others Septs who had their lands in that area. Cognatic kinship practice was inherent in the old clans. Rather than brother-lineages, our kinreds were cousin-lineages, both paternal and maternal. In brief, if an incoming man married a lady of heritage, being a member of a local derbhfine, her children were due a portion of her clan lands. Some of her lands also reverted back to the derbhfine. This was an old practice. These cousin-lineages represented new branches descended from the nobility in a bilateral cognate line from the original derbhfine. They also established their own agnatic gilfine nobility and later derbhfine royalty as they grew and naturally branched over a fief. Before the time of the Norman invasion of co. Down, the Annals record that the MacDonnsliebhe were Kings of both the Dal Fiacha and Dal Araide. I wrote a little on this a while back in the forum. An old saying in Ireland was 'seven generations from a King to a spade', which represents descent from the local Derbhfine. Another practice of the old kindred which is of interest is the Glasfine or blue-kin. These folk were literally out of the blue, decending from a lady of the clan and a landless foriegner. Again son's from this union were heirs to a share of their mothers lands and gained membership to their maternal grandfathers Clan. One could imagine many of the children who descended from the Vikings who came to Ireland and Scotland were treated in this way. This could explain Viking lineages found in Gaelic kindreds in contrast to those agnatic Clans of Viking descent who integrated into their mothers Gaelic culture. A primary example would be the Viking R1a lineage of the Macdonald Lords of the Isles and the chiefs of their branch clans. The Cruithne founder-lineage is thought to have been a member of the so-called Celtic Iron-Age migrations. This may also explain the I1c in southern Scandinavia as an incoming Iron-Age group. There is little doubt that most I1c is found from northern Spain through to southern Scandinavia. This would place the I1c-folk as members of the Atlantic Celts. Andrew, there are now two families in the project who are I1c. If interested we have a I1c Y-Clan Study at FTDNA. All the best! Grant.

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Grant, Perhaps there is some truth then that the MacAleevy's decend from a MacDuinnshleibe descended from a Royal family of Ulster and that their name is a spelling variation of Donlevy (Dunlevy). Interesting. I was wondering if there were any historic accounts of what actually happened to the Dunleavy family after their leader was defeated by Norman John de Courcy in the 12th century. One source mentioned that these Dunlevy's fled their old home in Ulster for County Donegal in the south of Ireland at that time. Perhaps some still reside in Donegal, certainly there are Dunleavy's today in the Republic to be sure.

[Eugene McAleavey]

Hi Grant, I've been reading your responses. I tried to email you via the DNA forum but am unsure whether you recieved the email. I would not be surprised if there is a Magennis (most common local spelling in South Down), MacDuinnsleibhe connection. The Magennis of Iveagh became the most influential family in this part of Co Down after the decline of the MacDuinnslebhe. I did a short history a few years back and copied all the citings for MacDuinnsleibhe in the Annals of Ulster and Four Masters up to about 1350 AD. If you haven't got these and they are of use, I can email them. On another note, can I get access to the Isles I1c forum? Thanks Eugene McAleavey.

[Grant South1]

Yes please do email me on both accounts at; southness@austarnet.com.au All the best! Grant.

[Bachuil]

I am a little confused here.

[Grant South1]

Hi Donald, My understanding is that two branches of the MacDonnsleibhe survived the Norman invasion of co.Down. One went to Donegal, as you mention, the other to Scotland. I believe Woulfe may have mentioned this. In terms of Donegal I am not sure that this house has survived in the male line. I do remember reading something in O'Harts under Don Levi. I think this would place the Young Bachuil and the Chief as heirs to the old line of Ulidia. I think the Livingstones of Bachuil are in a unique position for five reasons. Their Y-DNA is a reference point in the contemporary study of Highland Clans. 1. They are a ancient Celtic sacral {hence Royal} line which has survived into the present. 2. They have survived on the old lands of the territorial designation and office. 3. They still hold the relic of their office. 4. They have long been held amongst other Chiefs of high degree to be ancient Princes. 5. They have been recognised by the Crown through the Lord Lyon to be so. This means they hold an undoubted position as the oldest Nobles of the Noblese of Scotland. In time I would like to see a Clan roll which outlines the various traditional cadet branches of the clan and the various families across the Global Village who are their descendants. An update of the lines of descent are long over due. I know several researchers have been working towards this aim and I believe we will get there. Rob has undertaken many years of research on the subject. And I know Andrew through his work around the DNA project is active in mapping the various families as they come to light. What I have noted in my study of highland genealogies is the interwoven nature of clans and their chiefly houses through various degrees of maternal descent. This has changed my view of agnatic kinship and its respective cultural practices. All the best! Grant.

[Grant South1]

Hello Donald, I hope I am a friend of the Clan! All the best! Grant.

[Jill Richmond]

Hi Donald, Here is one person who is intensely interested in researching a family connection to the Isle of Lismore/Morven. From around the late eighteenth century my family lived in Craignish, Argyll, but I am pretty certain that is not where they originally came from. I suspect that after the 1745 rising most Livingstones wanted to make themselves pretty scarce and left their ancestral homes, possibly changing their names from MacLea to Livingstone at the same time. My family tree goes back to approximately the 1750s which would have been when my 3rd great grandfather, Archibald was born. I feel that if I knew who his father was, I would know where the family really did come from. I feel that this answer is almost within fingertip reach, but it is proving very elusive. In answer to your other posting, my family were poor tenant farmers, who sometimes also did a bit of fishing and quarrying. Their lot was not improved until my great grandfather took his wife and young family into Glasgow. I would think that a lot emigration took place because of the political and economic conditions obtaining in Argyll during the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. Your ancestors must have felt there was a better chance of finding work in a new country, and so they joined the thousands of other highlanders who felt the same, and left their native land. Regards, Jill