William Livingstone & Isabella Bremner

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Wanda and Suzanne,

The census taker in the 1852 Census made note of maiden name of the wife of the householder which most dont. Sometimes in Scottish Canadian households when censused the wife would give her maiden name rather than her husbands name and it was recorded as such. Have seen this a few times before in 19th century Ontario census records. Notice this pattern continues when on the same census page he recorded the maiden name of wife of Neil Livingston and Hugh Livingston. If one is lucky enough to have a ancestor censused in this manner it is helpful in determing the maiden name of your Livingston ancestor if you dont know it already. Unfortunately was not common practice among census takers in 19th century Ontario census records.

I would suspect that Bremner for John Bremner was his middle name and the census taker just didnt bother to record him as John Bremner Livington. My reasoning is that in the subsequent 1861, 1871 and 1881 census he is referred to as John Livingston. It seems plausible that John was actually William's grandson and Jane's son born out of wedlock around 1850 and he is then raised by his grandparents William and Isabel and residing on their farm with the mother and their daughter Jane and his Uncle George as the 1851 and 1861 Census seems to indicate. Whether this scenario is correct however we cant really determine for certain and it remains speculation at best.

I am also wondering if Jane could be a widowed daughter in law of William and Isabella with a son John B. Livington born around 1852 or 1850. The 1901 census records John B. Livingstone birthdate as July 13, 1852. There is a Jane Levingston recorded in the 1891 Census in Grattan Township who is recorded as being a widowed age 59 born abt. 1832. In the same census a John Levingston is recorded as being married age 39 born abt. 1852. Old William was dead by this point. If the 1851/1852 Census info I have is correct John was 1 and half years old but maybe they meant 1 and half months. Anyways he appears in the 1861, 1871 and 1881 with old William Livingston so we know John B. Livingston has some connection to this family. I am going to check out the maritial status from the original census on microfilm and verify whether from the original document whether or not they recorded Jane Livingston that resided with William Livingston as being a widower. From 1851 to 1881 census she appears to be residing with William Livingston. In the 1851 Census she is recorded as Ann but John is recorded as a baby with William, Isabella a son George. In any event from 1851 to 1881 Census she appears not to have a husband and in 1891 she is listed as widowed so I am going to have figure that one out by checking the full census information from previous censuses and see if they list her maritial status in 1861, 1871 and 1881. It seems clear from those earlier census she was one way or another without a husband. Whether John B. was her child is still speculative. My sense is that John B. Livingston or Livingstone was William`s grandson, but I am still trying to figure this all out.

Isabella would have been getting on in years by 1850 to have given birth to John and it would seem she is not his mother. I noticed also that a daughter Jane is not mentioned while William and Isabellas son George Is in that family tree you are talking about Suzanne. Whether the creator of the family tree was not aware that George had a sister named Jane. I guess one needs to determine for certain that she was a daughter of William and Isabella and not a Livingston relative. At this point without birth or baptismal records one can only assume that she is one of the youngest children of Willliam and Isabella not mentioned in that Bremner-Livingston family tree.

Heres family information for John Bremner Livingstone from the 1901 Census Grattan Township, Renfrew County, ONtario
John B Livingstone b. July 13, 1852
Jane H. Livingstone b. May 11, 1855 wife
William J. Livingstone b.March 11, 1882
George T. Livingstone b. April 8, 1884
Katie M. Livingstone b. May 19, 1886
Mary I. Livingtone b. May 10, 1889
Stella P. Livingstone b. May 14, 1891
Robert m. Livingstone b. Sept. 3. 1893
Margaret J. Livingstone b. August 28, 1895
Annie E. Livingstone b. Sept. 24, 1896
John G. McK. Livingstone b. Feb. 9, 1899


regards,

Donald
Donald

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Suzanne,
The 1851 Census for William Livingston does not list Jane as a resident just Ann age 15 who probaby is not same person as Jane but another daughter of Wiliam and Isabella. However we have Jane living with John B. Livingston and Willliam Livingston in the 1861, 1871, 1881 and 1891 Grattan township census reccord and these I am going to take a closer look at the original entire entries today.

regards,

Donald

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Wanda and Suzanne,
I checked out today the complete 1891 Census for Grattan Township.
An important update on the earlier information. Here are some more details which shine greater light on who is related to who and how.

1891 Ontario Census Grattan Township, Renfrew County
John Levingston age 39 born Ontario Father and Mother born in Ontario Head of Household
Jane Levingston age 25 born Ontario Father and Mother born in Ontario wife
William Levingston age 8 born Ontario Father and Mother born in Ontario son
George Levingston age 7 born Ontario Father and Mother born in Ontario son
Catharine Levingston age 5 born Ontario Father and Mother born in Ontario daughter
Mary Levingston age 2 born Ontario Father and Mother born in Ontario daughter
Jane Levingston age 59 Widow born Ontario Father and Mother born in Ontario Mother of Head of Household

Note the details of the 1891 Census indicate that Jane Levingston or Livingston age 59 who was residing at residence of John Livingston of Grattan Township, Renfrew County, Ontario was the Mother of John Livingston born in 1852 also known as John Bremner Livingston. secondly this census indicates that Jane age 59 had parents who were born in Canada and not Scotland so we can probably rule out her being a daughter of William and Isabella but more likely a daughter in law. And the 1891 Census finally recorded her as Widowed so I presume she is the widowed daughter in law of William and Isabella married to a son William Jr? whom we are not familiar with. Interestingly the previous census record do not indicate her as married, single or a widower and in some cases it is just left blank. But at least with the 1891 Census we have something more to work with. Clearly John Bremner Livingston born around 1852 or 1851 is her son. And she seems to be a daughter in law of WILLIAM and Isabella recently widowed at the time of the 1852 Census and living with them. The 1891 Census info at least supports this possible scenario. I have not yet found her in the 1901 Census and I suspect she may have died sometime between the 1891 and 1901 Canadian Census. i will take another look at that. Anyways Wanda this Jane Livingston born abt. 1832 in Ontario is definitely John Bremner Livingstons mother as I suspected but it looks like she is not the daughter of William and Isabella but very llikely a widowed daughter in law if the 1891 Census is correct. WIthout the 1891 census info I would still be totally confused about this family. Also please in the 1852 Census I missed Jean Livingston age 20. Jane and Jean are the same name among the 19th century Scots. Jean alias Jane is John's mother we now know for certain and that follows the information that was stated in John's marriage record as far as his mother goes. Ann age 15 is apparently the youngest daughter of William and Isabella. I have now made that correction in my earlier messages.

regards,

Donald

[whisperingwinds]

thanks again... this family is my husbands family. my father in law, and all of his family all said they were related to dr. david livingstone, as my father in laws grandfather, john bremner livingstone, born 1852, gratten, ont., was related as a second cousin, to him, i am sure he said. but it was cousin, none the less.. my father in laws mother was stella patterson livingstone. her parents were john bremner livingstone and jane hanley mills.. they had 13 kids themselves, i am aware about, and they have big connections to renfrew/gratten/toronto and scot bush area....

both, my father in law, and my husband have now passed. my father in law, john mills mccallum, died in 2008, he was born in 1921, toronto.. and my husband, randy mills mccallum, died, this year, feb. 4...

i have looked again, and found alittle more info concerning john bremner livingstone. not too much, but confirms his parents once again. , as william livingstone, born in lanarkshire, scotland and jane bremner, also born in lanarkshire, scotland.. i found this on a copy of john b. livingstones, death certificate.. john is buried in prospect cemetary, york county. he was buried july 2, 1931, and he died june 30, 1931.. also, as i stated before, i also have a copy of john and jane mills, marriage license where it just states, johns parents were william and jane livingstone... now, on johns death certificate, it does state his parents, as i said, as william livingstone of lanarkshire. scotland, and jane bremner also of lanarkshire, scotl..... but this death certificate does give claim to his mothers maiden name being bremner.. i don't know if i am missing something here, but, either isabella was also known as jane, or , her sister, jane/jean bremner, was johns mother, and isabellas husband william livingstone, fathered this man name john..... if i do remember right, william and isabella did have a son john. johns father, is william livingstone, and johns mother is jane bremner.. and this is all from, a marriage and a death record. i could not find a birth record, for john, but i did manage to get these ones.. so, now, what do you think ?

wanda

[whisperingwinds]

donald,

i just read your reply, it all sounds very interesting, and somewhat confusing to a point. i really do appreciate you trying to help me with this. i have been wracking my brains for quite awhile on these guys . i have been working on them, about a year, before my husband passed, off and on. i really felt i was missing something here. i hope you are right. if jane is a daughter in law, to william and isabella i wonder why on johns death certificate, it does claim his parents to be jane bremner and william livingstone, both of lanarkshire, as i mentioned earlier. the death certificate itself, does have his parents names as unknown, but, then upon closer examination, it is written on top of the unknown part, as what i just mentioned, the names were there.. visible enough to see, and to make out..... i did try to find johns birth record, as he was born in ontario, but, i could just find the marriage and death certificate.. i also have searched out census records, before, but never knew the names of his sibblings, etc.. i just knew his parents names, his own childrens names, and his wifes name.. John Bremner Livingstone was born july 12, 1852.... and died, june 30, 1931.. york, ontario area.. he was a farmer in gratten, when he married, and later on...

i really do appreciate all your hard work, but now this death certificate stating johns mothers, maiden name as bremner, is now, conflicting with what you found. i don't get it.. you said, william and isabella, had a son, william jr !!!... you said little info is known on him. this jr., did he marry a girl named jane? or a jane bremner, as our george bremner jr... he did marry, what, his own aunt or cousin, something like that. and she was jane bremner, a daughter of george sr., and his wife, ann ?, wasn't she... so, now, this death record wants to get me going.. as i said, i really am missing something, here, or there was something fishy going on here.. your findings do sound logical, but as you also said, little is known on william jr., and now we have this death record...

i really do not know of any names as to john b. livingstones, sibblings. this info, i never did..

thank you,
wanda

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Wanda,

Sorry to learn of the passing of your husband and father-law. I am however certain they would pleased that you are continuing the Livingston family research. If no one bothers to do this kind of work, save the old family photos, do the genealogy and write down the stories then it is all lost for future generations.

I suspect that the information on the death record is a second hand account and based upon a relative's memory at the time of John's death. Some where along the way whatever information was know by the deceased family got mixed up. Next of kin info on death records arent always completely reliable especially when the deceased is quite old. First of John's grandparents William and Isbella Livingson were born in Perthshire,Scotland and that is where I understood from the surviving records they were living when they resided when they left Scotland for Canada with George Bremner Sr. and Jr. in 1821. They have no known connection to Glasgow or Dr. Livingtone's Blantyre which was in the County of Lanarkshire in Scotland. The other thing to know is that the DNA tests of Dr. Livingstone's brother's great grandson indicates some possible ancestral connection to a small group of highland and possibly Irish Livingstones but most of the highland Livingstones included those that match relatively close to William Livington's descendant in the projecttested do not match at all with this group associated by the testing with Dr. Livingtone's line.

The other thing we do know from the 1851, 1861, 1871, 1881 and 1891 Canadian Census records is that all agree in their information that Jane Livingston born abt. 1832 was born in Ontario, Canada and the 1891 Census further tells us she was born to a mother and father of Canadian origin and not Scottish. SHe was not Livington then by birth but by marriage I would assume. The family tree I have seen indicates that William and Isabella's son George Livingston married Jane Bremner so would not think that Jane Livingstons last name was Bremner also. There probably is a death record for Jane but the problem is that with the Ontario death records they dont give the name of the parents in Ontario death records prior to the early 1900's. At some point I will take a look at the record and see what it says but I think it will list her as Jane Livingston, when she died and where and little more.

The most interesting thing though regarding Jane Livingston is that this new research is challenging the established family tree of William Livingston and Isabella Bremner which I noticed assumed she was in fact the daughter of William and Isabella Livingston. They correctly state she was born in 1832 and record her death as 1893 which makes sense given that as i mentioned she is no longer living with her son John B. Livingston and his wife Jane in Grattan Township, Renfrew County. The 1891 Census is however quite clear that she is not born to parents of Scottish origin and she is a widow Livington and not a spinster daughter Livingston as some might assume if they had seen the 1891 Census. Clearly the family gave two important details to the census taker regarding Jane. That she was not of parents born in Scotland and that she was a widow. If even just one of these details was correct it would by itself negate her from being the daughter of John and Isabella Livingston. So I think it is safe to assume that the 1891 Census taker was given accurate information.

regards,

Donald

regards,

Donald

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Wanda,

Yes I am sorry that there is still some confusion. I wish that it was all so much simpler. It is unfortunate that Jane appears in the census right from the 1852 Canadian Census without a husband so we dont even have a name of her husband in this or later census records as he apparently died before John B. Livingstons birth. I just seems odd that the grandparents were William Livington and Isabella Bremner and their son George Livingston married Jane Bremner according to the family tree and then the family info from John B's records states that JOhn's mother was Jane Bremner who married William Livington. There could be a single mistake in here. I am just not certain as yet what it is. Yes definitely puzzling. There may indeed be a mistake in the information but we have verified that his mother was correctly stated as Jane. What is not quite clear to me is whether John B's grandfather William whom helped to raise him on his farm since a baby was mistaken as his father in those later records. I would however trust the information more on the marriage record than on Johns death record and if he gives his fathers name as William on his marriage record then is what it must have been because that is coming directly from him and not a secondary source. So I am assuming from that William and Isabella had a son named WIlliam who of course no one in later years had docmented info on because he died at around 20 shortly before the birth of his first child John B. Liivngston. It is because he died so young into his marriage and left no document trail in terms of birth records of his children and only had one that the Livingstons dont really know about him. Most of genealogy research is reconstructing old familes from what birth and marriage records survive but if someone dies that young then chances are they could easily be overlooked. That is what I think happened here. I would not worry too much about Janes last name for now. We may figure it out later. We have established that Jane Livingston 1832-1893 residing at the farm of old WIlliam Livingston and Isabella Bremner is JOhn B. Livingstons mother and that a very good case can be made now that she was the daughter in law of William and Isabella anad not their daughter as the family tree stated. Also that John B. is the grandson of old William born 1799 and Isabella I think which is 100 percent certain in my mind. I am convinced from the census info that Jane is a widow with a son living with her in laws and then after WIlliam died in 1888, she was living with her son JOhn B. Livingston and his wife and family. That I am pretty certain of. ANd we did not know that before yesterday.

I will check with Suzanne. It may be that it is understood that WIlliam and Isabella lived for a tiime in Lanarkshire. The original info from the time of their departure suggests that part of a Perthshire imigration in Doane, Perthshire headed by Isabella's father George Bremner who I thought lived around there. I also thought that WIlliam and Isabella were married in Perthshire and that WIlliam was born at Port of MOnteith, Perthshire. The Lanarkshire information I am not familar with. It is quite common among persons of Livingston family origin to have heard family stories attributing a connection to Dr. Livingstone's family. Mine had one also.

Ultimatetly, we may not figure this whole thing out, but we will do the best we can with whatever info is still available to us.

regards,

Donald

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Wanda,

William and Isabella Livingston's son George Livingston married Jane Bremner daughter of George and Jane Bremner on April 6th 1863 according to the Renfrew County marriage records. This from the Wesleyan Methodist church records. So this is documented. Other interesting thing is that it looks like George Livingston married his first cousin. This marriage did not last long and in 1871 George married his second wife Louisa Naismith and then in 1877 Jane Carswell. George Livingston died in September 9, 1909.

So now the question remains was the mother of John Bremner Livingston a Jane Bremner as well and his father as indicated in both his marriage and death record a William Livingston. If so then another Livingston family member whom we believe to have been named William married another Jane last name Bremner as did his brother George. Now that would be a million to one coincidence if true. One other thing is odd. The family tree for William and Isabella Livingston indicates that Jane whom they assume to have been a daughter was born in 1832 and died in 1893 which appears to be probably correct for our Jane Livingston mother of John B. However in the Bremner family tree George and Janet Bremner daughter Jane BRemner who married William and Isabella Livingston son George as I mentioned is listed as being born also in the year 1832. Two Janes born in 1832? Yikes. I am going to try and verify that George Livingstons wife was actually born around 1832 as am not entirely certain of that but 1832 is in the family tree info. You see the strange coincidences that are somewhat puzzling to me. There were definitely two Janes in Grattan Township apparently around the same age and one was definitely a Jane Bremner daughter of George but I just cant prove that your Jane mother of your John B. LIvingston was a Bremner though that is what his family must of have been told before John's death. You werent kidding when you said this confusing. Anyways I wanted to keep you up to date with what I have learned in case it helps to solve the mystery eventually.

regards,

Donald

[Canadian Livingstone]

HI Suzanne,
This is where I am at with this most interesting development in William and Isabella Livingston family research.
Regarding the William Livingston and Isabella Bremner Family tree and a daughter Jean Livingston who died in 1893 and am 100 per cent certain that the Jean Livingston age 20 listed in residence with Willaim and Isabella Livingson and a infant referred to only a John Bremner is infact their widowed daughter in law Jane Livingston age 29 in the 1861 Census, Jane Livingston age 39 in the 1871, Jane Livingston age 49 in the 1881 Census and Jane Livingston age 59 in the 1891 Census. By the 1891 Census following the death of old William she is residing with her son JOhn Livingston and the census verifies she is the mother of the householder John Livingston in Grattan Township and one important detail not mentioned in the previous census records: she is a widow. Also this census records that she was born in Ontario and so was her Mother and Father which would seem to elimnate the possibility of William and Isabella as her parents. She is not listed in the 1901 Census with her son John B. Livingston as she died in 1893. She is also identified as a widower so if that is case I would assume that John's father died shortly before or after his birth around 1852. Wandas research has revealed information from John's marriage record in which stated that his parents were William and Jane Livington but does not give Janes maiden name. Later on his death record in the 1900's the family recorded his parents interestingly as William Livington and Jane Bremner. The most well known Jane Bremner in this family group was Isabella Livingston's neice Jane Bremner who married her son George Livingston in 1863 but as to the widow Jane Livingston who was living with William and isabella from at least 1851 to Williams death in 1888 I have no answer as whether she was also a Jane Bremner and that a unknown son apparently named William married another Bremner cousin named Jane before 1852 as did his brother George later in 1863. Anything is possible but is strikes me as perhaps unlikely. What do you think. Notice that both the Livingston and Bremner family tree I have refering to from the web page suggests both Janes were born in 1832 which is another curious coincidence if true. What do make of all this? I think its important that we sort this out for Wanda and her family and for the future generations of William and Isabellas descendants.

regards,

Donald

[whisperingwinds]

Hi Donald...

I really do want to thank you for wanting to help me here...

I am glad you understand why I am confused...

The informants name on John B. Livingstone's death record, was made by one of his sons. His name was Robert Mills Livingstone. On the death record, they just have him down as, R. M. Livingstone. And it was stated there, both of Johns parents were born in Lanarkshire, Scotland..

Here's a thought I was thinking, which could make sense, but just need to prove / verify.. What if, our William Livingstons, son, George -- what if his middle name was William, would you know this at all? If Johns death record info, is correct, that Jane Bremner is Johns mother, maybe, if Georges middle name was William, could it be possible, George may have also be known as William, called by his middle name, like some families do ? And this would make John B. Livingstones parents, William (George) Livingstone and Jane Bremner..... This is just a thought I had. Some families do, do this... To me, this would make more sense, and Johns marriage / death record would be valid info.. But these vital statistics, should be reliable, one would think...

If there are no records, anywhere, making claim, that William and Isabella, had a son William Jr., and married a lady named Jane, how can one go about to prove this one? It would probably be difficult. Some things I did read, as I am sure you know, Williams daughter, Jean / Jane Livingstone had a child out of wedlock.. This could be probable, too, except for the marriage / death records, does give name of both of Johns parents and birth places, on the one..... I have never thought to try to look up info on this type of thing, it never did acure to me. I do also, realize that back in the day, for one reason or another, some grandparents did bring up a grandchild, as one of their own. If Williams daughter Jean/Jane did have a son name John B. Livingstone, out of wed lock then I guess that possibility also can exist. But, is your William Livingstone Jr., actually George (William?) Livingstone, who did indeed marry, a Jane/Jean Bremner?????


One more thing, when you talk about this Jane Livingstone, widow, and mother to John, what makes no sense here, to me, if she is Johns mother, why would she only go to live with her son, after the death of William Livingstone, whom she was already living with, as you stated..

Might be hard to try to find these answers. Maybe we never will. But these are good ideas to be working with here. Could be a start.. Like I said, I am either missing something, or there is something fishy here....

Well, I am very happy you want to try to help, and you understand my brick wall. This has been eating at me for awhile, now..

I'll check in alittle later, to see if you come up with anything else...

Thank you so very much..

Wanda McCallum