Randomly Acquired Information

[jmlivingstone]

Donald,
I'm back in Scotland at present, this is latest info from www.scotsfamily.com on Angus & Margaret Livingstone, not sure if I sent this previously.

John


Attached is the result of further research, requested on the siblings of John Livingston(e) born on Mull in 1805.

We found records of the birth-baptism of eight siblings of John, only one of them being elder.

The parents Angus Livingston and Mary Hall were living in Glasgow when they had their first child . Mary was born there on 31st October 1802, and baptised same day . Her father Angus was then a cotton spinner in Glasgow.

The next record is of son John’s baptism on 7th February 1805 on Mull, at Kilpatrick . This is a small township or hamlet within Kilvinichen and Kilvickeon parish.

The Livingston family were still at Kilpatrick, Kilvinichen, when the third child Betty was born, and baptised on 25th April 1807. Angus is described as a “pensioner” . In these times, this meant that he received a pension from the Army for former service (as in Chelsea Pensioner ).

By 1809, the Livingston family had moved within Kilvinichen parish to the township of Siaba , also known as Shiaba. Daughter Cirsty was baptised on 29th October 1809. There is then a gap of a few years before Duncan was born at Siaba and baptised on 30th September 1814 . Then follows the birth of a female child , baptised on 29th September 1816, whose first name the Clerk neglects to enter into the Parish Register .

On 6th June 1819, son Hugh is baptised, and two years later daughter Ann on 29th December 1821. Finally, the ninth and last child is born and baptised on 18th January 1829, to Angus Livingston, Pensioner, and mother Margaret Hall, resident at Siaba.

I hope our further research and these record copies are of interest and use to you.

Yours sincerely Brian Thomson

[jmlivingstone]

Donald,

Continuation to last post, I note Jura census 1841 is not mentioned.

Attached is the result of further research, requested on the siblings of John Livingston(e) born on Mull in 1805.

We found records of the birth-baptism of eight siblings of John, only one of them being elder.

The parents Angus Livingston and Mary Hall were living in Glasgow when they had their first child . Mary was born there on 31st October 1802, and baptised same day . Her father Angus was then a cotton spinner in Glasgow.

The next record is of son John’s baptism on 7th February 1805 on Mull, at Kilpatrick . This is a small township or hamlet within Kilvinichen and Kilvickeon parish.

The Livingston family were still at Kilpatrick, Kilvinichen, when the third child Betty was born, and baptised on 25th April 1807. Angus is described as a “pensioner” . In these times, this meant that he received a pension from the Army for former service (as in Chelsea Pensioner ).

By 1809, the Livingston family had moved within Kilvinichen parish to the township of Siaba , also known as Shiaba. Daughter Cirsty was baptised on 29th October 1809. There is then a gap of a few years before Duncan was born at Siaba and baptised on 30th September 1814 . Then follows the birth of a female child , baptised on 29th September 1816, whose first name the Clerk neglects to enter into the Parish Register .

On 6th June 1819, son Hugh is baptised, and two years later daughter Ann on 29th December 1821. Finally, the ninth and last child is born and baptised on 18th January 1829, to Angus Livingston, Pensioner, and mother Margaret Hall, resident at Siaba.

I hope our further research and these record copies are of interest and use to you.

Yours sincerely Brian Thomson

[jmlivingstone]

Donald,
I'm presently in Scotland for a few weeks in between contracts, I was speaking to a cousin yesterday, she is around twenty years my senior, in around her mid 80's. Her father is a McLean, who was born and brought up on Mull, he later became a police officer in Greenock.
She tells me, it was common knowledge in older family members, like her g/father and mother, that the Livingstone family originated in Morvern, not sure if they were Livingstone or McLea at this point, they later moved to Kilpatrick/Shiaba, where Angus was born around 1775, then some of the next generation, including John born 1805, moved to West Lothian, and later to possibly Jura, then to Islay, and later again to Greenock and Glasgow.
Apparently when her parents got married, they visited Mull, and actually met some Livingstone relatives who were still resident on the island, this was probably around 1925 - 1930, so presumably, although I do not know who they are, or where they are, there are probably still family members living on Mull.
As DNA results have proven, the family definitely originate from Mull, from Angus Livingstone and Margaret Hall.
I still have issues with the Angus and family in the Jura census 1841, I can find no trace of this family after this census, plus ages etc. show major discrepancies. I tend to suspect it is the same Angus born abt. 1775 at Shiaba, and whose father was probably Neil, mothers name unknown.
As I've suggested before, they may have found the most incompetent census taker in Scotland, and/or, possibly the Livingstone family were not particularly well educated either, and could not verify what the census taker wrote, who knows.
We also had it much easier than most in researching the family, we were fortunate in the fact, the nearest most of them got to emigration, was moving from Mull to West Lothian, Islay and then Greenock/Glasgow,

John

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi John,
Thanks for passing on all of your latest info on your Livingston ancestors.
Yes I think of the beauty of a significant number of Livingstone descendants connecting as a group through the DNA testing is that we can see through their ancestors origins that many if most probably have a ancestors that moved about but ultimately have as you say roots in Mull or neighbouring Morvern as in the case of my ancestor. Andrew and Kyle refer to this group of Livingston descendants as the "Parker-Livingstone Group" . (There is Parker whose Livingston ancestor was adopted by a Parker we believe). These are Livingstons whose Western Argyll highland ancestors later settled in North Carolina, USA, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island, Upper Canada (present day Ontario, Canada) and Australia. Some of those tested are more closely connected to some ancient highland Livingston ancestor than others but all appear to share somewhat similiar DNA resutls. In your case your ancestors remained in Scotland but perhaps in later years left Mull or Morvern in search of better prospects for themselves and their family. In the early years some of the better off tenant farmers left of their own accord having been informed of free land grants and settlement opportunities in the colonies, but later in the 1800's the crofters on marginal tenant holdings were more and more removed from their land or in their poverty compelled to take up offers of settlement in new world where they had the hope of owning a farm and a decent size acreage. Others like Dr. Livingstone's grandfather Neil Livingston in 1792 saw the solution to his families poverty in migrating to Lowland Lanarkshire and working in a mill. These were the options available to our clan in the late 1700's and into the next century as they dealt with the increasing difficulties of remaining in their ancestral homeland.

regards,

Donald

[jmlivingstone]

Donald,

Something I have mentioned on a few occasions,but nobody seems to have picked up on, if you have a look at Keith in Australias side of the family, I think you will find that his relative Gavin, and mines John, are brothers, parents John Livingstone (born 1832) & Agnes Edmiston.
Also, if you have a look at the ''Parker-Livingstone Group'' you will find I am ID No. 127272,
Have you managed to find any more info on Angus, who may, or may not, have been resident on Jura in 1841,personally I am not sure if it's the same Angus and family, who were born at Shiaba or Kilpatrick, Isle of Mull,

John

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi John,

I am not sure that the DNA results would conclude that you and Keith are neccessarily closely related but I would like to check with Andrew on that. All three of us with our results in the Project are definitely part of a genetically defined highland Livingstone group whose Mclea and later Livingstone ancestors resided in the parishes of Western Argyll, Mull and neighbouring Morvern ,for example, but you might want to consult with Keith on his DNA results and see if you can compare them with yours to get a sense of how closely related you might be and then check with Andrew Lancaster on this. Actually we are wondering if I am related to Keith Livingston because my cousin`s results seem possibly quite closely matched to Keiths. I have not been able to reach Keith in Australia but am hoping to do so soon. I think also he would be interested in learning about your latest research in your families. I will ask Andrew what he thinks regarding the test results and get back to you.

regards,

Donald

[Kyle MacLea]

Hi Jim,

Within this group (Parker/Livingstone) I would love to see more people upgrade to 67 markers so we can tease out the relationships a bit better. There is no doubt that you, Keith, and Donald, are all related. The question of "closeness" would be easier to address if everyone had done 67 markers, particularly Keith. (Though he is hard to get a hold of!)

That being said, some lines accumulate more mutations than others along the way, making distance appear greater than expected. The only way to really see if that is the case would be to test more people at various branch points between two ("known") relatives to see if there is one generation where some of these mutations happened together, for instance. I'm not sure there is ever really going to be evidence to conclude for sure that people share the same great-great-grandfather, etc.

My own second cousin once removed and I have two mismatches on 37 markers, which seems a bit high to me, but it is what it is.

Kyle=

[jmlivingstone]

Andrew/Donald,

The research I have posted so far, I had mostly found for myself, but as I had grave doubts about the accuracy of some of the info I found, I got Brian Thomson at www.scotsfamily.com. to verify what I had found.
I did not have a great deal of faith that I had got it right, it all seemed to go too easy, scotsfamily came up with virtually the same info as I had found, the one exception beng, they found a daughter of Angus & Margaret that I did not know existed.

Although Keith has not done as much DNA testing, the research he posted in the past years, matches up, more or less exactly, with what I have now researched, I disagree with him on being related to Dr. Livingstone, and have not found any evidence of family ever living in Blantyre.
Anway, they are minor differences of opinion, and hopefully in the near future, DNA will prove we both got the major facts correct, and prove his Gavin, and my John are indeed brothers.

I also have some info on the Livingstone female who married in Paisley around WW11, reference Keiths relics of Dr.Livingstone, we also have some items, which according to family stories, originated from Dr. Livingstone, they are quite obviously of African origin. However, my personal opinion differs on this from most of my family, I reckon, given the number of family members who sailed in the merchant navy in the 1800's, these items were probably souvenirs from runs ashore in Africa.

Something that may stir someones memory, I have a vague memory, of probably cousins of my fathers, who lived in Canada, and who flew for Air Canada, assuming that was the correct name for the airline at the time,visiting us in Scotland.
I think they were two brothers, one of whom may have been a flight engineer, I'm not too sure of dates, I think in the mid 50's possibly, I am also assuming they were Livingstones, hopefully someone may have some knowledge of these gents,

John

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi John,

I am going to try to contact Keith again and update him. I think it would be worthwhile it he did the DNA Upgrade to see precisely where he fits in the scheme of things. I am inclined to agree with you that he may turn out to be a close match to you rather than to me but all the tests are worthwhile ventures in case other Livingstons related to you, Keith or my Livingston cousins should become part of the project. Our little group has grown and I suspect it may well continue to do so given the number of Livingstons out there with Mull and Movern origins.

regards,

Donald

[jmlivingstone]

Kyle,

Just noticed I was calling you Andrew the other day,suppose that's what can happen when you have a couple or so largish glasses of Laphroaig, then jump around various clan sites, and end up totally confused,

John